Courtesy of the ever-insightful (and inciteful!) “Non Sequitur” strip by Wiley Miller,
we now have an excellent cartoon version of Morton’s Demon.
(Warning: this image will only be online for ~ 3 weeks.)
June 3rd ‘toon
Non Sequiter” online
Discuss.
That whole sequence of cartoons seems to be a pretty good description of ID, really.
To the IDiots, I’m asking, explain the constraints of life, namely, why did Archaeopteryx fly like a modified feathered dinosaur, rather than like a modern bird?
The most I’ve gotten back was yammering about how complex it is, and the usual non sequitur that comes after “it’s far more complex than anything humans can make”, that non sequitur being, “so it was designed.” I have never quite gotten the use of their analogy when they typically admit that life is actually quite unlike our own designs.
IOW, la la la la, I can’t hear you.
Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Isn’t the current thinking that all birds are modified feathered dinosaurs (at least for a somewhat arbitrary definition of dinosaur)? Are you sure that the problem isn’t that the ID lot simply can’t answer the question because they’ve been reading too much Fred Hoyle and think that the whole thing is a hoax?
I love Wiley. I have his 7-7-99 one taped to my office door.
Right side of scene: caveman drawing horse-drawn cart on cave wall.
Left side of scene: cavewoman complaining “when are you going to stop wasting your time with that science fiction nonsense and start dealing with reality?”
Here’s what the tolweb (tree of life website) has on that:
Henry
The Preconceptual Scientist seems to have started with the 6/1/09 cartoon with one or more sets in between.
Interestingly, a the previous set of cartoons dealing with Mars touchs on the urban myth of Mars approaching the earch so close that it will look as big as the moon this coming August, which it will absolutely not do.
I never gave much thought to Non Sequitur, might have to pay more attention.
I might have to pay more attention to my spelling as well.
The method is especially easy when the “theory” you want to “prove” is “don’t ask, don’t tell.”
Trouble is, creationists use this very argument against science. They claim that dismissing their scriptures with “It’s not science” is ‘materialism’ and exactly the same as saying “La, la, la”. (If you’ve ever debated a creationist informally, you’ll be very familiar with this response.) They’re very fond of the “Science has just as many presuppositions as religion, therefore it is a religion too” argument. (Is this what I think I remember hearing described as the ‘Judo’ argument?)
I also liked the June 5 strip.
Good point, but I should caution that IDers (and many classic creationists who have learned their tactics) will not say “scriptures,” but rather their “science” (or “theory,” etc.). Generally they first try to get away with “they’re both scientific,” but will retreat to “they’re both religious” when the first approach fails, or is not expected to work with the particular audience. Then they’ll find another audience and start over. The big name activists, if not their trained parrots, know that it’s all a game to mislead nonscientists, but they also know that, by taking a few liberties with definitions, they can usually pull it off.
One easy way to avoid our own “la la la” is to not just dismiss their “scripture-and/or-science,” but rather to ask them to spell it out in detail. Demand that they state what the Creator-and/or-designer did, when, and how. Ask them how they will test their claims independent of any weaknesses they perceive in “Darwinism.” Skilled anti-evolution activists have well-rehearsed evasion tactics of course, but that at least alerts the non-hopeless segment of the misled audience that these scam artists are indeed playing games. Plus the not-so-skilled ones can get caught exposing how hopelessly deadlocked they are in their own irreconcilable differences regarding “what happened, when, and how.”
Perfect! Did anyone else immediately think of Dembski’s “I’m not going to take the bait”?
I don’t get it, who is the cartoon making fun of? ;-)
That’s a pretty insightful cartoon; put the “theory” out there and let the rubes take the heat trying to “prove” it by provoking arguments.
I loved this one
The expressions on the critters is priceless.
I sent it to my Mom
I read it as “fool the rubes into thinking that the onus is on the critics of ID to provide every last detail of their theory while the IDers sit back and play word games.”
From now on, Glen Davidson may want to avoid mentioning bird-dinosaur evolution-beliefs WRT to Morton’s Demon, in light of current scientific developments.
And a very interesting (and very true) bottom line, courtesy of Creation-Evolution Headlines:
So now you see the real meal deal. Good luck, Darwinian Minions!
What point are you trying to make by posting quotemined drivel from 5th rate Creationist sites?
Even if these quotations are true, I would tell you that minority views and dissension from consensus aren’t always correct to begin with, but, then again, you are a person who prides in his inability to distinguish between a church and a science classroom.
So when are you going to learn some science, FL? Still unable to do so? Have you figured out yet why you are unable to learn anything? Mentally retarded? Terrified by what your dogma says is in store for you if you do?
FL
Guess how they came to this iconoclastic conclusion, FL?
They did the work.
They didn’t thump their bibles, or make up some shitty math.
They did the work.
Now we’ll see if the work stands up to peer review.
Maybe we should try that with your theory, FL…
Oh, that’s right, you don’t have one. Oh, well.
He has no point. Scientists disagree about something. They frequently disagree about stuff. It may even be correct. So what?
If new data is found, anyone sane modifies their theory. Except religion which gets it wrong at the start, never changes anything, and ends up killing people for pointing that out.
Not sure I buy this anyway. Ruben is always making noise to get noticed. It is one data point from one lab and there are many, many data points pointing to dinosaurs and birds having a direct descendant anscestor relation. The flow through lung, feathers, and bone morphology among them.
Speaking of doing the work:
http://www.evolutionpages.com/bird_lung.htm
These Non Sequitur cartoons are repeats from June 6, 8 and 10 of 2005. Maybe older. I laughed again.
2005/06/06 2005/06/08 2005/06/10
I haven’t looked into the matter yet, but I’m sure that was a highly reputable source, FL. Therefore you should have no trouble reading the Dinosaur-Bird article in the transitional fossils issue of E:EO discussed in yesterday’s thread:
http://www.springerlink.com/content[…]fulltext.pdf
and after examining all of that HARD EVIDENCE, being able to explain EXACTLY what type of finding it would take to overturn each and every piece of it. Then you can explain to us the details of the OSU study and how it has managed to do just that.
He’s baaa-aaack.
Hiya, FL. Had another brainstorm about the theology, yet? But as to the paleontology…
Here we have unimpeachable evidence for a whole related group of small bipedal running raptors that had feathers and developed forelimbs, in what is now Central Asia, going back to the mid-Jurassic. The feathers argue warm-bloodedness; the increased forelimbs and feathers together argue airbrakes to help the animal change direction at the run, certainly an advantage in a running predator - or in prey, for that matter.
Here we also have evidence for afforestation in the region, several periods of it. Many of the adaptions observed in these raptors - grasping claws, for example, and strong hindlimbs - are also useful in the trees. So are the air-grabbing forelimbs, which can be used to flatten a fall into a glide. The more, the better, seamlessly. Hence, quarter-wings, half-wings, and wings.
Smallish feathered animals with warm blood and gliding surfaces - wings, eventually. Hmm. Sounds like birds to me. And any small step that makes them more efficient as gliders from tree to tree, fits them better for that environment. Lighter weight, for example.
Ah, but it is not known when and how one feature of their anatomy evolved: their lung function and related structures. What does this mean?
Does it mean that we throw everything we do know away? Do we say, no, no, birds didn’t evolve after all? Of course not. Not only doesn’t that conclusion follow, but it is a surrender to ignorance; worse, it is to allow the false and fraudulent, but (alas) familiar argument from ignorance.
It is also to assume that the ignorance is permanent. But to say “it is not known” is to say “it is not known yet”, nothing more. Paleontologists in the field will go on working, looking for the evidence. They’ll probably find it, only to have creationists point out, in their characteristic discontented whine, that there are still gaps, so therefore Goddidit.
Thus, here’s FL, popping up to use the argument from ignorance yet again. As he would say himself, with his slightly jarring reproduction of cliches that he thinks demonstrates how current he is, “rinse and repeat”.
The “real meal deal”, as FL puts it, is that he prefers ignorance. Then again, why shouldn’t he? It is, after all, his only real ally.
Ahhhh, if only Christians possessed the same level of faith WRT God’s Word that you possess WRT evolution and evolutionists, Dave. We’d be ready for the Second Coming by dinnertime!
Oh, I went ahead and mopped up what was left of your (and one or two others’) objections on the theology thread. It was pretty easy. I still owe you an unpacking of your last two squibs, but I can always stick those on the Bathroom Wall if the theology thread drops off before I can get to it.
****
But lets be honest here on the bird-dinosaur gig. You guys just took a peer-review-published punch in the gut on that one this week. Not from creationists. From your own evolutionists at Oregon State.
And they even spoke of “Museum Politics” and such things, suggesting that you guys have got your OWN hands full of Morton’s Demon. (Bad thread topic timing, boys?)
And the best you can do is issue yet another Darwinian promissory note (some call ‘em “Unpaid Bills”) and promise that someday somehow the evo’s and paleo’s will get it right and get this one paid off too.
FL :)
Having read John Ruben’s paper, it doesn’t really have anything to say (nor does it say anything about) birds evolving from dinosaurs. What it does argue is that the bird lung system depends on a femur that is always held near the abdomen to act as an anchor to allow the abdominal air sacs to fill. He mentions in his paper that the fossil record indicates that this system was not present (or highly reduced) in Archaeopteryx and has developed in successive bird species. He simultaneously argues that this likely means that therapods did not share the current bird respiratory arrangements and were more likely like crocodiles in their lung structure. None of this indicates that birds didn’t (or couldn’t) descend from therapods, only that the lung system was a birds-only adaptation.
I do rather think that his use of Allosaurus and Tyrannosaurus skeletons in his analysis may have thrown the data a touch, since they are a fairly distant therapod group compared to the Deinonychosaurs.
Now, as far as I’m aware, there are therapod fossils predating Archaeopteryx, so why birds are supposed to have existed before the dinosaurs they’re supposed to have evolved from (unless he means specific feathered species like Velociraptor), as he mentions in the Science Daily article I’m not sure.
I suspect the Science Daily article is either mangling what Ruben was saying, or he’s using this evidence to support other lines of evidence for a hypothesis that birds diverged from dinosaur ancestors much earlier than is currently accepted and that Science Daily isn’t mentioning those bits.
Oh, and for the interested, the DOI for the paper: 10.1002/jmor.10752
These days I just don’t have much patience to read either creationist drivel or the mostly bait-taking replies to it, so I apologize in advance if I missed it. But in all the above discussion was there any mention of evidence that birds and dinosaurs were products of 2 separate origin-of-life events? Particularly ones that occurred only thousands of years ago? Evidence that does not rely on the same old incredulity of evolution?
So, what exactly were you trying to say? That Rubens had a change of faith and thinks that the Bible is the alpha and omega of science and that evolution is now magically untrue?
Who knows. FL is just the guy that throws shit at the fan and laughs.
Probably both are correct. Scientists are getting a little creative with headlines these days. The Eocene lemur monkey is humans missing link, birds evolved from something before dinosaurs and so on.
Ruben is also basing his idea on Longisquamous (sp?), an enigmatic and very old reptile that has structures that resemble feathers. This fossil has been known for years and experts have pored over it and come to various conclusions. They are feathers or just things that look superficially like feathers.
Ruben is basing his hypothesis on some slim reads. The latest paper is on knee runner birds and how the lung air sack system is anchored. Which he admits is a later evolutionary development. And Longisquamous which has been known for decades. This is classic, Extraordinary claims requires extraordinaroy proof. He doesn’t have the latter.
Whenever one sees long running and heated disputes in science, it says one thing. Need more data. Data is the one thing that settles these. More small theropod and bird fossils from the Jurassic and Triassic would be very imformative. These are also about as hard to find as it gets.
Well, he clearly has never made any effort to understand any science or religion.
However he certainly appears to be working hard on finding ways to piss people off. Apparently this is the essence of his religion.
Tardboy, even if birds didn’t evolve from dinosaurs, as they almost certainly did (embryology and fossils support the idea), my argument wouldn’t be substantially changed.
The “poor design” of Archaeopteryx is due to constraints upon the adaptation of a terrestrial animal for flight regardless, and design has absolutely no answer for why anyone or anything would design that way.
You’re like the person accused of killing nine men and a dog, who shows up at the court triumphantly holding the dog. You’re objections are as irrelevant as you are.
Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
I might also add that FL, like many of his kind, uses many words to say nothing of substance or as an attempt to hide the fact that he knows nothing. In fact (and I don’t believe I have seen any exceptions yet), the more words he uses, the more inane his screeds are.
I think that has something to do with how he has been trained in his “religion”.
Indeed!
Translation:
Nobody took a punch in the gut and nobody thinks that any sort of reorganization of thinking would suddenly negate the entire theory of evolution – except illogical creationists like yourself. I still haven’t had a chance to look at the paper, but it won’t change the similarities between birds and theropods and it certainly won’t change the fact that birds evolved from reptiles.
Speaking of “unpaid bills,” FL, we’re all still waiting on your insightful evidence showing how the birth of Christ disproves the TOE and resolving the discrepant genealogies.
FL,
Perhaps you could wander over to the transitions thread and down load the paper on the dinosaur/bird transitions. Then perhaps you can explain to us why this new evidence is supposedly a problem. Come now, your chance to finally discuss some real science. Surely you must be interested.
Oh and while you are at it, perhaps you could also explain the developmental and genetic data as well. That would be nice.
Given his level of competence, do you really think FL can follow your directions to the previous thread, then to the original citation, then to the actual paper?
I don’t think so.
So, I’ve made it easy for him: FL, CLICK HERE!
Dave
Not at all. Ruben is questioning the current bird origin theory, which is how science works. All science is provisional, subject to falsification at any time. That is how it progresses and why it is self correcting. Why we live in a Hi Tech century.
I don’t see that Ruben has much except 2 small reeds (not reads, thanks for not noticing).
1. He is basing part of his view on finding that birds are “knee runners” and the thigh bone is fixed and anchors the distal part of the lung air sack system. This is interesting but irrelevant. We already know that this evolved and is not present in primitive birds. It is a derived characteristic.
2. His smoking gun is supposedly Longisquamous. This is a well known very old reptile discovered decades ago. It has features that some like Ruben claim are feathers and others claim are structures that look superficially like feathers but aren’t.
He and everyone else really needs much more data from the Jurassic and Triassic to establish this. Given the difficulty of finding small animal fossils from this period, might take a while.
Speaking of interesting, the bird dino controversy is a lot more interesting than feeding the trolls. Might make a good PT post.
I have found that FL regularly makes a claim, then presents evidence, and that evidence proves FL’s claim to be false. This does not seem to bother him/her: s/he is apparently one of those who can hold both a statement and its opposite without any cognitive dissidence.
Perhaps without any cognition.
Longisquama’s taxonomy is obscure but some place it as an archosaur i.e. a primitive dinosaur. So even if Ruben is correct, birds still are dinosaurs.
Actually, the problems—(including the museum politics that implicates evolutionists in the Morton’s Demon phenomenon, which is the thread topic)– were clearly pointed out in the science journal article itself. No need to have them re-explained to you, I’m sure.
If what they wrote is NOT a problem for you, if you’ve got solutions in hand already, then you should be submitting your refutation-article to that same science journal, and quickly.
I haven’t published anything about bird-dinosaur evolutionary claims, but the Oregon State researchers have. You need to address THEM, in peer-reviewed print, if you’ve got it all figured out already. I’m confident your refutation would pass the journal peer-review and get published quickly, because you know more about the bird-dinosaur situation than the Oregon State researchers do.
So, have at it! And let me know when your acceptance letter arrives so I can keep an eager eye out for your article!
FL
Yeah, I gave him the link yesterday. We’re waiting FL. How exactly is this a problem? It sounds to me like the OSU authors’ position might be a little overstated in the media reports (like that’s never happened before) and there are all of those other data to set the context for this. I would bet that the J. Morph article is worded much more cautiously than the creationist blog you cite claims. And I don’t have to bet that you all certainly have no “alternative” explanations of bird origins. And no, FL, the canard concerning whether they were “poofed” into existence on “Creation Day 5” (Gen. 1) or “Creation Day 6” (Gen. 2) will not suddenly increase in scientific merit just because new questions have been raised by new findings in the real, scientific world.
I’ll say one thing for you FL. You capture the essential difference between “Creationist” and “Scientist” quite well.
FL, Do the OSU researchers you’re harping on agree with you that birds were specially created ~6k years ago?
No, they would think you’re a pitifully ignorant man who confuses ancient creation myths with science. The argument about bird orgins is about details. None of the scientists involved doubts that birds arose via descent with modification from some ancestor they shared with therapsids. The only question is how far back that common ancestor lived. The question will be resolved not by carefully rereading Genesis but rather by gathering and analyzing more paleontological, morphological, and genetical data.
But notice, “genetic” and “Genesis” both start with “GENE”!!!111!!!!one!!
Incredible how FL can (repeatedly) quote an article wherein all the scientists completely disagree with him while crowing and strutting as if they’ve confirmed his claims.
FL - those scientists all accept, and contribute to, the current mainstream theory of evolution in all its details (i.e., their views are 180 degrees opposite to yours).
The depth of self-delusion is comparable to that of a soccer player who goes running up the field to score an own goal and then jumps up and down grinning and hollering “In your FACE!” at the opposing players.
Abstract of Quick/Ruben paper
I’m in over my head here, but this abstract doesn’t seem to convey the triumphant “we’ve demolished the dinosaur-bird link” attitude the Science Daily article did.
That link didn’t seem to work. I’ll try again
Abstract
It’s at http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/[…]783/abstract
I think that said that the line leading to birds developed functions that isn’t present in crocodilians, and probably wasn’t present in most therapods.
Henry
Once again, I jumped in with my two cents without doing my homework. Thanks, Robert, for sharing your take on the paper itself.
This idiot wears his stupidity with such snarky pride that it suggests strongly that there is nothing but pure malicious hatred behind his taunting. Some “Christian” this one; little different from someone who takes it upon himself to go out and gun down innocent people because reality doesn’t match up with his self-contained and air-tight world view.
He understands absolutely nothing about scientific facts, theories or processes. He thinks the processes taking place in the crucible of science are evidence that scientists are in complete disarray.
Put a scientist in the crucible of peer review and what emerges is a better scientist and better science. Expose an ID/creationist to even a hint of that crucible and what emerges is a whining child with a persecution complex.
Expose FL to any inconsistencies in his sectarian dogma, and what emerges from him is self-righteous babble that shows he doesn’t understand religion either. Obviously there are no rigorous learning curves in his “religion” that improve the character of anyone who gets taken in by its dogma. Instead, it appears to be entirely intellectual junk food that produces fat and flatulent followers who can do nothing but seek out opportunities to crap their hatred onto everyone else.
So it is no wonder that FL is incapable of understanding any concept or process that stretches and challenges individuals to become better life-long learners, better communicators of hard-won knowledge and wisdom, and generally all-round better human beings.
Wow. That’s not even close to a controversy. And what do you know? FL hasn’t peeped since you guys presented the abstract and Robert’s summary of the paper.
No, FL is trying to say:
Science + Disagreement = Creationism is Correct
Same thing.
Well, now that FL has been outed, once again, as the typical Liar and Slanderer for Jesus, he’s now biding his time for a new thread to infest until he’s outed again.
Cognitive Dissonance, Confirmation Bias, Infinite Regress, I can’t explain it! So, it must be GOD, redux.
Just in case anyone’s interested, I was checking up on that Science Daily article and stumbled on this (Science Daily Nov. 7, 2007):
Why Dinosaurs Had “Fowl” Breath
It led to a paper published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences.
It’s also written about here.
Dinosaurs breathed like penguins
Personally, I liked this article better than the Science Daily one.
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