During his testimony, Rob Pennock used this quote in court in support of the proposition that explicitly religious concerns are part of the substance of ID. The quote is from Nancy Pearcey, in her recent book “Total Truth”. I had not seen it before, and it definitely deserves more attention:
“[D]esign theory demonstrates that Christians can sit in the supernaturalist’s ‘chair’ even in their professional lives, seeing the cosmos through the lens of a comprehensive biblical worldview.” (Nancy Pearcey, Total Truth pp. 204-205)
Pennock argued that for ID proponents, intelligent design is intended to scientifically prove the supernatural, moving it into the realm of scientific fact.





In other words, they want to be able to throw themselves from the temple parapet and have God intervene so they float to the ground. There is warning in scripture against such testing of God.
Sometimes I worry that these people really have not read the book they idolize so much.
Of course, that book also warns against such idolization.
Sheesh.
Updates on intelligent designer available! http://sqsme.blogspot.com
Is this a joke? Because it’s really fragmented and rambling.
As crank.net would say: illucid.
Dude, lay off the pot for a while. It’s destroying your brain.
back in the 60’s that would have definitively qualified you for space cadet status. Wasn’t that part of a cheech and chong comedy routine? I expected “is that you Dave?” at any moment.
“Dave’s not here, man”.
;)
I tell people I am *not* a former hippie. I still *am*. (grin)
No man - its Dave!
Whoa, that’s was like, man, being back in Haight Ashbury! Where did I leave those flowers? Like, oh wow.
They don’t need to READ it, they done been told what it says dude. Besides, I’m not all that sure most of them CAN read.
This strikes me as a parody of The Time Cube, which for a long while I thought was satire itself. Reality, of course, outdid itself once again.
-Schmitt.
You folks are being commented upon over at Right Reason (this thread actually). Here’s the URL if you want to join in
http://rightreason.ektopos.com/arch[…]pe.html#more
Cheers, Oolong
Ralph Waldo Emerson: “All I have seen has taught me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen.”
Thanks for the link to Right Reason. Beckwith, unfortunately as usual, is miles off the mark. The quote, which mentions the supernatural, is not used to “poison the well” by associating ID with “supernatural” ghosts and witches.
Instead, it is used to show the much more devastating point that the whole goal of ID is to empirically prove a supernatural view, specifically the “comprehensive biblical worldview.”
Beckwith then accuses me (or rather, if he was paying more attention, Pennock) of taking the quote out of context. Well, let’s see the context, from pp. 404-405 of Nancy Pearcey’s book Total Truth:
This stuff, I would argue, is putting it rather more strongly than Beckwith would like to admit. ID is quite clearly an attempt to prove “biblical Christianity” (and, if you keep reading Pearcey 2004, it’s clear that she has a very specific version of “biblical Christianity” in mind, basically the same old fundamentalist creationism she was pushing for decades in the Bible-Science Newsletter).
Not to beat up further on Beckwith, but really, his position on this is preposterous and naive – he blurbed Pearcey’s book, so presumably he read it. He has known the Discovery Institute fellows for years, he must have some idea that their “we do science, not religion” and “ID is not creationism” rhetoric is not supported by their actions.
By way of further illustration, the above-quoted passage is the end of chapter six. On the very next page begins chapter 7, entitled, and I am not making this up, “TODAY BIOLOGY, TOMORROW THE WORLD.”
I am also not making up this quote from the first paragraph of chapter 7:
Pearcey then immediately segues into a discussion of the 2002 Ohio science standards battle. Yep, this “critical analysis of evolution” stuff is really all about teaching good science! C’mon.
Beckwith writes,
Well, if the above Pearcey quote about how ID “restores Christianity to its status as genuine knowledge” didn’t convince Beckwith, here are a few more quotes from Total Truth: Liberating Christianity from its Cultural Captivity.
In the notes, Pearcey writes,
Beckwith’s arguments for the constitutionality of ID consistently give the impression that he is trying to fit square pegs in round holes. Nancy Pearcey says right there on page 415 that “Intelligent Design theory” is Christian apologetics. I’m sure the ID movement appreciates Beckwith’s attempts to cover for his colleagues, but his fundamental problem is that the ID movement’s core goal really is to promote a specific religious view. And this is one thing the Constitution clearly says the government cannot do.
Once again, from the Wedge Document:
Hey Beckwith, was the Discovery Institute just lying to potential donors when it made those statements to them?
Or do you want to try and argue that these stated DI goals are “not promoting a religious view” . … ?
Since there are many new people here who have only recently become interested in the ID “debate” (because of the Dover trial), it occurs to me that many of the lurkers in the audience probably don’t know what “The Wedge Document” is, or what it says.
The Wedge Document is an internal memorandum from the Discovery Institute (the leading proponent of Intelligent Designer “Theory”) that was leaked to the Internet in 1999. The Discovery Institute later admitted to its authenticity. Since then, Discovery Institute hasn’t talked very much about the document, or the strategy it outlines. The reason is crushingly obvious, since the Wedge Document makes it readily apparent that the Discovery Institute is flat-out lying to us when it claims that its Intelligent Designer campaign is concerned only with science and does not have any religious aims, purpose or effect.
The Wedge Document is reproduced here, in full.
United States Supreme Court 1963, The case of School District of Abington Township v. Schempp: The State may not establish a “religion of secularism” in the sense of affirmativaly opposing or showing hostility to religion, thus preferring those who believe in no religion to those who do believe. It might well be said that one’s education is not complete without the study of comparative religion or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization. It certainly may be said that the Bible is worthy of study for its literary and historic qualities. Nothing we have said here indicates that such study of the Bible or of religion, when presented objectlively as part of a secular program of education, may not be effected consistantly with the First Amendment.
United States Supreme Court 1952, Zorach v. Clauson: We are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being…When the state encourages religious instruction or cooporates with religious authorities by adjusting the schedule of public events to sectarian needs, it follows the best of our traditions. For it then respects the religious nature of our peolpe and accomodates the public service to their spiritual needs.
I quite agree.
It is, of course, the FUNDIES who generally fight tooth and nail against any attempt at comparative religion.
What they want is for THEIR religious opinions to be taught, but no one else’s.
Can you just IMAGINE the response of Joe Fundy when his little girl comes home and says “Guess what, Daddy? Today in school we learned about other gods.”
United States Supreme Court, 1857, Dred Scott v Sanford. “Negros had no rights which the white man was bound to respect; and that the negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his benefit. He was bought and sold and treated as an ordinary article of merchandise and traffic, whenever profit could be made by it.”
So what’s your point in citing half-century-old overturned Supreme Court decisions?
Overturned? I don’t think so. You sight a ruling from 150 years ago that has been obviously overturned. Many think that our government is opposed to religion in education, and that teaching ID or creationism along side evolution is promoting a “particular religious view.” Read your history.
Fundies? Our founding fathers must have been fundies too. To quote Bruce Hornsby “ That’s just the way it is.”
They think it because it’s true. At minimum, ID promotes theism, which is a religious view. In practice, at least in the US, ID is used to promote Christianity (usually of the more fundamental variety), which is certainly a “particular religious view.”
Of course, on top of all that, teaching ID or creationism along side evolution is teaching non-science and claiming it’s science. That means it’s not only teach a “particular religious view,” it’s also “lying.”
Lemon v Kurzman.
Engel v Vitale.
Stone v Graham.
Wallace v Jaffre.
Edwards v Aguillard.
Read them. Read them twice. Have an educated person explain all the big words to you.
Our Founding Fathers were also slaveowners who only allowed white male property owners to vote. (shrug)
Once again I ask, what the hell is your point?
So THAT’S what ID is all about … ?
“Religion in education” … ?
Are all those IDers who tell us that it’s science and has nothing – nothing at all whatsoever – to do with religion, just lying to us?
That’s what I suspected all along. But thanks for confirming that for us.
It might be useful if people actually went and read Zorach v. Clauson, I don’t think it contradicts more recent decisions, it was a case that upheld a policy whereby parents could excuse students from public school classes to go attend religious instruction on private ground.
Francis J. Beckwith writes,
“Thus, the falsity of materialism helps support the truth of Christianity.”
This is the danger of acting for the sake of apologetics, because there is precisely nothing to prevent FJB from excusing ID thus:
“The falsity of any naturalistic science helps support the truth of Christianity.”
Except, maybe, the obvious impropriety of the statement. It is becoming clearer everyday that this is the sole aim of ID: to promote the lie that naturalistic sciences are a defeater to Christian theism. Even if that were true, FJB ignores (despite all of his praises for sound philosophical argumentation) the logical truth that defeating a defeater does not automatically render a promotion. Thus, one can reject as implausible FJB’s excuse that ID exists to “help support the truth of Christianity”. Rather, the more plausible explanation is that ID is merely a program designed specifically for the purposes of forcing others to “the truth of Christianity”. It does so, not by removing the alleged obstacle of materialism, but by obfuscating the flaws in the ID-promoted worldview, all for the sake of apologetics. In this regard, FJB has already decided which flaws he would prefer to obscure, and truth be damned. For instance, the notion that any naturalistic science is equivalent to materialism is equivalent to an obstacle to Christian theism is one such peculiarities of a flawed worldview. To think that people need the help of FJB to come to Christ by his heroic overthrow of a specific naturalistic science is also rather peculiar. To require others understand how FJB thinks and believes, via imposing bad policies through legal / government endorsement, is another peculiarity of a flawed worldview. Make no mistake, this is the intended effect of Dover advocates like Buckingham.
So, in the end, the natural question is what is the primary motivation of people like FJB. Is it to save Christianity or is it to obscure the flaws in their particular version of Christianity? One has to believe that Christianity needs saving, I suppose, especially in a country where the large majority of its citizens are Christians. But, let me offer this: if reinstituting the design argument (even an allegedly “modest” version of one) is going to save Christianity, then it is already in a bad place. In particular, it will require the Herculean feat of convincing people of the scientific evidence of Design (in particular the Design of the Christian God, and not of some ET from Outer Space). I believe, FJB, to date, has not been willing to stake his reputation on the evidence presented by his peers thus far. Now, isn’t that interesting…
For millions of Christians there are not two chairs. For Darwin and other faithful Christians of his era, their faith started with the assumption – faith-based, not “proven” as science – that God is the motivating force and creator of everything in the universe. From this faith foundation naturally flowed the idea that one could observe God’s methods by observing nature, and further, that what is observed in nature is an accurate and true manifestation of God, God’s work and intentions. Some faithful make the error of creating a deceitful role for God, as was laid out in the book Oomphalos in the early 19th century. Christian commentators then dismissed the idea that God created a new, but “old-looking” Earth because that view is contrary to the nature of God.
Schaeffer may well have made the Oomphalos error. That does not make Schaeffer correct, nor does it make evolution wrong – it just points out that even very good theologians can make serious theological errors.
Science and law should not be built on serious theological error. If there are two chair with different, conflicting views of the universe, it is because somebody has moved the right chair. Put it back.
Oh, one could make a case that the view is better from a different chair – but that case would have to be made with facts and data, with observations in nature.
Clearly that’s not a chair ID advocates care to occupy.
Beckwith has responded to this on Right Reason
Phil Skell also “responds” with his usual denials. Others provide a more relevant response to Beckwith. Well worth checking out.
Ah, Beckwith, who has previously posted here that the civil rights movement was religous and not secular, based on the language of Martin Luther King’s “Letter from a Birmingham Jail,” conveniently ignoring that it is addressed to anti-civil rights clergy who were telling him to go slow when pushing for integration. Now he says that the obviously monotheistic, specifically Christian underpinnings of IDC aren’t really based on religion.
I’d say it was amazing, but in Beckwith’s case, it’s entirely commonplace.
Schaeffer did not make the Oomphalos error (which I had never heard of, but am taking from Ed’s comment that it means the “apparent age theory.”) He has a small book entitled No Final Conflict in which he describes the unity of the bible and science. In there he specifically attacks “existential theology”, which holds that the Bible is infallible only in spiritual matters, not when it comes to history or science.
As for how to reconcile the Genesis account with science, he allows for several possibilities including (but not endorsing) apparent age, the day-age view, etc. As for his position, he writes:
He’s entitled to his opinions. (shrug) So are you. So am I. So is my next door neighbor and the kid who delivers my pizzas.
Of course, neither me nor my next door neighbor nor the kid who delivers my pizzas are such arrogant self-righteous pricks as to claim that everyone else should accept their religious opinions.
Know anybody like that, Davey . … . . ?
David, even most Bible critics would agree that the author of Genesis meant 24 hour periods when referring to the days in Gen 1.
You are of course quite wrong. Only the YEC nutjobs think this.
BTW, Genesis had more than one author. And their accounts don’t agree with each other.
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