The York Daily Record reports on the testimony by Dover Board Member Heather Geesey who wrote a letter to the editor stating:
Dover Board Member Heather Geesey Wrote:“You can teach creationism without its being Christianity”
But things only got better…
Geesey testified that she recalled Buckingham and fellow board member Alan Bonsell discussing intelligent design at the June 2004 meetings. That contradicted her sworn deposition, in which she said board members hadn’t named what alternatives should be presented to balance evolutionary theory.
When Walczak questioned the discrepancy, Geesey said her letter to the editor, along with Eveland’s, had jogged her memory.
Even the judge seemed confused by the testimony and proceeded with questioning the witness himself.
At the end of cross-examination, Jones was not satisfied and he began to question the witness himself.
Saying he was confused, Jones asked her to explain specifically how the letters triggered her memory. “I ask you because intelligent design is not mentioned in either letter,” he said.
Interestingly enough Geesey could not even define the concept of Intelligent Design
n court Friday, she agreed with Walczak that she hadn’t thought much about the concept and said she had taken the word of fellow board members Buckingham and Bonsell.
“Bill and Alan said it was a scientific theory,” she said.
Fascinating stuff
Quote of the day
“I don’t know what you could possibly hope to achieve.” — Judge John E. Jones III, to Dover lawyer Patrick Gillen on Friday. Gillen had asked Jones if he could question school board member Heather Geesey after cross-examination ended and Jones himself had questioned Geesey, telling her he was confused by her testimony.
In the immortal words of Karl, that’s Frickin Awesome.
For the record, Geesey’s complete letter to the NY Times is also included in the article PvM cites. Here it is:
Since Buckingham used the Oxytocin defense, perhaps Geesey could use the twinkie defense?
“I don’t know what you could possibly hope to achieve.”
I think we can all see where this is heading. With each passing day, the judge seems more and more sympathetic to the plaintiffs.
I predict that the Christian right will wait for the inevitable ruling in favor of the plaintiffs to come down and then will start sliming John E. Jones III like there’s no tomorrow. Doesn’t he realize that the US is founded on Christian principles?
Also: Isn’t there a superhero whose secret identity is John Jones, a.k.a. J’onn J’onzz, THE MARTIAN MANHUNTER? It’s obvious to any God-fearing American that this judge is an alien implant.
your aquateen undies are showing ;)
Oh, great. Look who just ruined Halloween. You know you’re like the A-bomb! Everybody’s laughin’ and havin’ a good time until you show up. Then boom! everything’s dead.
That’s definitely ripe for attack by the intelligent, educated segment of society.
Who wrote “The Moon Rulez #1” on MY FRICKIN CAR?!
Unless the reporters were using transcripts of a stenographer (none was present) it would not be surprised that at least one would not get the sentence exactly right. But even if two people with pen and notepad don’t get the sentence exactly right, that they got the exact same meaning and similiar wording while working independently is extremely strong evidence that cross comment was really stated. (And that is ignoring the other witnesses.)
That the judge acted in the way this article says that he did, is certainly good news. And this is after Buckingham’s clear perjury. That the board members wish not to come clean about their use of the “C” word, is certainly good evidence.
Plum wrote
Hey don’t bring us Aliens into it it’s nothing to do with us, well except for those anaMartians but they deny WE exist.
Hec why worry any way, kids can’t distinguish what’s real and what’s not, they really don’t know that there’s a difference between Aliens and Marg Simpson so why not just drop science altogether and just call it “weird stuff” there’s a perfect text book out already called “The Men Who Stare at Goats”
http://www.jonronson.com/goats_nytimes.html
“Bill and Alan said it was a scientific theory”
The blind leading the blind…
What really scares me is the part of her letter where she talks about America being a Christian nation. It scares the hell out of me, I mean literally freezes my blood:
“Our country was founded on Christian beliefs and principles.”
I’ve heard that phrase before, but only on the History Channel, on black and white film, in German.
Gott Mit Uns.
Ssssssh! Don´t invoke the LAW… ;-)
““Bill and Alan said it was a scientific theory,” she said.”
Well there you have it, dumb and dumber,
tweedle-dee, tweedle dumb..
Quite the authorities
We could ONLY HOPE the judge was J’onn J’onzz. Then he’d just read everyone’s mind, and one peek into Behe and his ilk, well.. says it all, really.
Behe and his ilk have minds?
:)
Maybe it’s that thick Dover accent that makes “Intelligent Design” sound like “Creationism” to people from out of town.
In the end, it doesn’t matter what Judge Jones rules. All that matters is what the Supreme Court does with the case.
I read somewhere that the motives were important in this case. IDists in the US clearly have religious motives, it’s inescapable. Ummm, isnt it?
These people seem to be embracing ignorance to an alarming degree for a bunch of school-board members. She’s happy to get behind a concept that’s rejected by the scientific meainstream on the word of a couple of colleagues without bothering to lift a finger to check its scientific status.
If this is an example of the sort of critical thinking they’re expecting their schoolkids to use when faced with this issue (or indeed, any issue), it speaks volumes for what they’re really trying to achieve. The argument from authority run wild.
If this is an example of the sort of critical thinking they’re expecting their schoolkids to use when faced with this issue (or indeed, any issue), it speaks volumes for what they’re really trying to achieve.
Of course, we’re way way way beyond “if” in late 2005.
These ID peddlers are morons, professional liars and/or reality-denying fanatics. All that matters is the outcome: spread the Word, sell some Bibles, affirm their religious beliefs, and everyone else can rot in hell (gays and commie atheists, especially).
Rubes like this Geesey character simply cannot understand how anyone could find her position on these matters so revolting. After all, Geesey knows that the Bible is scientifically accurate because her preacher told her that it was. She knows that the US is founded on Christian principles because she read that in a magazine endorsed by her church.
Is anyone claiming that these Christians could be wrong or misrepresenting the truth about anything? Geesey is flabbergasted by the possibility.
I mean, yeah, Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart got in trouble – but they weren’t Christians when they did those things that they did. How does Geesey know that?
Her preacher told her so. And she read it in a magazine endorsed by her church.
Not quite true. As the trial judge, Judge Jones would be accorded a lot of deference (except in the case of clear error) as to matters of fact. Appellate courts generally decide matters of law (but also mixed matters of law and fact). Judge Jones’s rulings as to intent, motivation, etc., for the school board would probably be let stand (as well as his determinations as to the matter of whether ID is properly science).
But with the Supreme Court you have nowadays, you never know what they’ll do (see, e.g., Dubya v. Gore).
FWIW, IANAL though.
Cheers,
In fact you can’t teach creationism, or ID, or the designer-free phony “critical analysis,” with it being Christianity, or Judaism, or any religion that says “thou shalt not bear false witness.”
Sir Toejam wrote:
“In the end, it doesn’t matter what Judge Jones rules. All that matters is what the Supreme Court does with the case.”
I (a non lawyer) strongly doubt this case will be appealed by TMLC for several reasons:
1. Several key defense witnesses may have perjured themselves. This would taint any appeal.
2. The testimony of the defenses expert witnesses actually harmed their case rather than helping it. This weakens any appeal based upon a ruling that “misconstrues the facts” of the case.
3. The DI will put whatever pressure they can to have TMLC not appeal the case. However, given the current tension between these two, the DI may have no influence.
4. Given how badly the defense has gone for this case, and given the ample legal precedent on Establishment cases, Judge Jones should be able to make a ruling that is very “appeal proof”.
5. Money. While the TMLC is doing this case pro bono, the Dover Board may be held liable for the plaintiffs legal fees. Appealing the case will only increase this potential liability.
On the other hand, should Judge Jones make a ruling in favor of the defense (highly unlikely), the plaintiffs can make a strong appeal.
I am cautiously optimistic that we may end up with a major win; a ruling against ID without an appeal. This would make future ID cases harder to win or appeal.
Shenda,
With the caveat that IANAL, here’s my pessimistic 2c:
A Dover loss could actually be better for the DI in the long run. Sure, they would have preferred if Dover and other followers abandoned the direct references to ID and used the DI’s designer-free strategy in the first place. But a Dover loss may be what it takes to get IDers and even classic creationists to see that a much sneakier approach is necessary. Granted, the “big tent” will still be unmistakable with unabashed YECs raving about designer-free “don’t ask, don’t tell” approaches, and pro-common descent IDers making excuses for YECs. But “big tent” association alone might not be enough to keep a few sentences of misrepresentation or a phony “critical analysis” out of public school science class on “establishment” grounds.
Note, By “Dover loss” I mean a Dover Board loss, and mainstream science win.
uh, I didn’t write that.
“uh, I didn’t write that.”
Ooops.…. It was ‘Rev Dr’ Lenny Flank. My apologies to you both.
Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa!
Shenda
They already tried the “critical analysis” BS, in Cobb County. They already lost.
I think they are very nearly out of options. Their only hope, at this point, is a Supreme Court that decides to chuck precedence and rule that religion can be taught in schools, and “separation of church and state” is as porous as the government wants it to be. And if THAT happens, then “science education” will be the LEAST of our problems.
But you SHOULD have. (grin)
What about Ohio? Note: I thought they won, but went back to the OSC site, and am now confused. Is the phony “critical analysis” being taught or not? From what I can tell, the real “critical analysis” proposed by OCS was rejected.
No, they didn’t win. They were forced to retreat to a secondary position – one which is already under challenge and which, in view of the Coob case, won’t stand up.
From my website:
By the way, since many of the new folks here may not have heard of (or seen) the Cobb County case, I offer the following commentary on it. In many ways, it is even more lethal to IDers than the Dover case will be:
From my website, at http://www.geocities.com/lflank :
The judge hasn’t ruled on the Dover case yet…but THE VOTERS HAVE! All 8 school board members up for election were soundly defeated.
Maybe you can teach Intellichimp Design Cretinism without Christianity, but you cannot teach it without GOD. There must be a supernatural being to intelligently design the universe, no ordinary mortal could do it. Therefore, Intellichimp Design Cretinism is religion, since it requires a supernatural being.
Kansas Board of Education members are going to be nervous this morning…they’re NEXT!!
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