My offer to discuss ID with Dembski

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Over at the DI’s News Evolution News and Views blog, (where you can’t comment on anything), Jonathon Witt writes,

KU Darwinists Duck Intelligent Design Debate

The Lawrence Journal-World covers the story here.

======= “Why won’t the Darwinists at KU debate philosopher and mathematician William Dembski, who will be speaking at a campus forum Jan. 28?

Leonard Krishtalka, director of KU’s Biodiversity Institute, said he was one scientist who declined an invitation to debate Dembski.

“There is nothing to debate,” Krishtalka said. “Intelligent design is religion thinly disguised as science and does not belong in the science classroom.” =======

I wonder if Krishtalka could at least take the time to show that intelligent design is a religion-based argument. Let’s set the bar really low for his opening statement.

However, Witt fails to mention another part of the story:

Jack Krebs, president of Kansas Citizens for Science, a group critical of intelligent design, said he volunteered to speak at the Campus Crusade event. Krebs said he told organizers he would not defend evolution at the event, but rather take a broad perspective and discuss, for example, his view that evolution need not conflict with religion. But Krebs said he was turned down.

“I think it’s revealing that they want to ‘teach the controversy,’ but they only want to teach the controversy in the way that they see it,” Krebs said.

Brown said he wanted professors to speak at the event. Krebs is not a KU professor. He teaches math at Oskaloosa High School, where he’s also technology director.

I had a nice long talk with the program organizer Mark Brown, the head of Campus Crusade for Christ. I told him that I would not “defend evolution,” but rather that I would discuss some of the flaws in Dembski’s ideas. I also said I would discuss some of the theological issues with ID, pointing out that there were many Christians who accepted evolution, and that there were many critics of ID within the community of Christian theologians and scientists. His response to this was that it was true that some Christians “survived” (his word) accepting evolution, but it was clear that this topic bothered him. He said he would think about my offer to participate.

About a week later I called to see what was decided, and was told Dembski had decided to present alone.

Now I have a few comments on this. First, the newspaper article pointed out that if Dembski would have gotten a KU professor to participate, there somehow would have been some corporate funds to share the cost. (CCC has rented the Lied Center, a 2000 seat auditorium on the KU campus.) Therefore, perhaps they figured if there wasn’t any financial reason to share the stage, why bother.

On the other hand, I do believe that they really don’t want to talk in public about the things I wanted to talk about. They want the façade of credibility for ID by setting it against evolution – against some well-know biology professor like Krishtalka, but they don’t want (and I find this ironic) to actually discuss the issue of Christianity and evolution in front of a group of Christians. What are they afraid of here?

Here is the key point for me, as quoted in the article: “I think it’s revealing that they want to ‘teach the controversy,’ but they only want to teach the controversy in the way that they see it.” They want to define what the controversy is, and they want us to participate in validating their definition by engaging in defending evolution. However, the real controversies are cultural, religious and political, and they refuse to discuss those.

Later the article said,

John Calvert, director of the Intelligent Design Network, which played a key role in the Kansas State Board of Education’s recent adoption of science standards critical of evolution, said he wasn’t surprised KU scientists declined invitations.

“That’s consistent with the boycott of the Kansas hearings,” he said.

Mainstream scientists refused to participate in the board’s hearings, saying they weren’t really about science.

Calvert said scientists’ refusal to compete with intelligent design proponents in a public forum made it difficult to know who is right.

“You can’t know they’re better unless they engage in a competition,” he said.

I’m sure this puts a strain on Nicks’ brand-new shiny irony-meter. Who exactly is refusing to engage in a competition? Who has failed to produce any scientific results in the eight years or so since an “ID research program” was announced as a goal of the Wedge document. Who, in fact, has had the general precepts of ID creationism in its various guises in competition with the idea of evolution for about 150 years, and lost badly?

I offered to present my view of the ID controversy with Dembski. I will gladly offer Calvert the same – is he willing to discuss the controversies that I see about ID? I’m not afraid of competition, but we have to agree on what game we are playing.

78 Comments

The Gospel According to “Cdesign Proponentists”

And Jesus Said Unto Them…

“Speak not my name openly. Deny me. Sneak and hide. Violate all that I have taught you. Break the Commandment against false witness. Lie and cheat, that ye may deny the reality of even that which men have observed with their very senses, and reasoned by the power of logic. Go unto the innocent, and deceive them. When ye are gathered in secret, wink and smirk, and speak my name, but only then. Forgive not, and be not humble. And when ye do all this, be like unto the publicans. Take taxes from men, and use ye their sheaves and their lambs against them, to fund the teaching of mistruth to their very children”.

Oh, wait. Jesus didn’t say any of that.

That’s just what Jonathon Witt, William Dembski, a million creationist internet trolls, and others of their ilk THINK he said. Or do they really…?

I find it truly depressing that the majority of students who attend this lecture at KU will probably never hear about the dishonest tactics the organisers are using to spread their propaganda.

About a week later I called to see what was decided, and was told Dembski had decided to present alone.

of course! can’t you see that they are just trying to make a talk to parallel Ken Miller’s?

I can envision sycophants on UD posting archived videos of demski’s talk now, claiming that it refutes everything Ken said in his, even tho it of course won’t.

*sigh*

Dembski talking at the “Lied Center”?! Too rich!

Gee, this wouldn’t be the same William Dembski who was a no-show at last week’s “debate” with Ken Miller in Ohio? Did we ever get his excuse … er, reason for missing that opportunity?

he was too busy preparing for this one?

I wonder if Krishtalka could at least take the time to show that intelligent design is a religion-based argument.

Well, maybe the fact that the event is hosted by Campus Crusade for Christ and sponsored by local churches might give a clue.

no no, even though it is hosted by a christian group, sponsored by christian groups, and features a seminary instructor, it is by NO MEANS religious in nature.

trust me, I am not a crook.

:p

Why not really test Nick’s irony meter: debate an athiest about the influence of evolution (or science more generally) on religious thought.

Teach the con… oh, you’ve just agreed to disagree.

Bob

The Campus Crusade for Christ at Davis, CA, invited the duo at Reasons to Believe (Ross and Rana) last February. I contacted the organizer Dave Lowe for information, and he said that he was having trouble finding scientists to be on a panel to “ask questions” of Ross and Rana. I got him talking and he said that he was only looking for “naturalists” to be on the panel, although they would settle on a theistic evolutionist if they “had to.”

The two professors, Dan Potter of plant bio and Andy Albrecht of physics did very well, framing the issue as: Where’s you’re data, where are your graphs, This is just religion. After the reparte’ and audience questions, the CCC folks were asking the professors why they didn’t play along and have a ‘debate.’ Later, I had them on my show, and they remarked that they were both discouraged from appearing by their colleagues because it makes the creationists seem legitimate.

And then the noticed, hey, we’re both atheists, isn’t that a coincidence? And I added, no, they chose atheists on purpose, its all part of the set-up. Put the atheist against the theist and play-up the Jesus versus science conflict.

What I find strange is when they are not trying to trash science in the name of religion, they are trying to say that the religious beliefs of 150-year old dead scientists mean that science supports religion. I think they should decide whether to be anti-elitist or elitist and stop saying what’s convenient. Karl

They want the façade of credibility for ID by setting it against evolution — against some well-know biology professor like Krishtalka, but they don’t want (and I find this ironic) to actually discuss the issue of Christianity and evolution in front of a group of Christians. What are they afraid of here?

They tried it on June 17th, 2001, and did not like the results.

”.…they only want to teach the controversy in the way that they see it.”

Now t.h.e.r.e.’s a two-way street for you.

Krishtalka, presumably an expert on evolution given his position and experience, simply ducks out altogether. No scientific reason given.

Krebs offers to steps in, but insists on a free “don’t have to defend evolution” card, as a prior condition of stepping in.

Meanwhile, Krebs’ stated intention is to “discuss some of the flaws in Dembski’s ideas”, so Dembski will NOT have an equal opportunity to enjoy a similarly free “don’t have to defend ID” card if he goes along with this gig.

Wow. I do not fault Jack Krebs for offering to step in to avoid any potential PR embarrassment caused by Mr. Krishtalka’s inability to debate/dialogue with Wm. Dembski, and I don’t belittle the issues that he is expressly concerned about, but I surely do not blame Wm. Dembski one bit for refusing to play along with this ‘prior condition’ business. Mm-mmmm.

There should not be any problem with evolutionists being willing to defend evolution, without any prior conditions, in public debate at Kansas University of all places.

Shoot, send Paul Mirecki or Chancellor Hemenway in there if everybody’s got cold feet. They seem sorta motivated.

FL

FL

Calvert said scientists’ refusal to compete with intelligent design proponents in a public forum made it difficult to know who is right.

“You can’t know they’re better unless they engage in a competition,” he said.

Once again, I point out that ID and evolution already HAD this “competition. In it, the Iders had the opportunity to present any and all witnnesses that they wanted to. They could present any data or evdience they wanted to. They could cross-examine all the “evolutionists” and point out any and all errors or distortions they thought they saw.

The name of that “competition” was Kitzmiller v Dover.

The IDers shot their entire load.

They lost.

They should get used to it and quit their damn whining.

I surely do not blame Wm. Dembski one bit for refusing to play along with this ‘prior condition’ business. Mm-mmmm.

Um, why didn’t the Isaac Newton of Information Theory get on the witness stand and shred all those evilutionist atheists in Dover when he had the chance? When it really counted?

ID is dead. Time to pull the IV tube and find another scam.

I agree that the DI is in serious trouble, and their recent desparation shows it. I think, though, SOMEONE at KU ought to try to publish a column about this, or be willing to at least show up to do a presentation, if not debate Dembski. Gullible denizens of Kansas need more unanswered hollow support of ID about as much as I need a proverbial hole in my head. Just for the sake of helping dumb Kansans to see that science has answers to the DI’s rhetoric, I think someone needs to meet Dembski head-on (kudos to Jack Krebs for his attempt to do so).

FL Wrote:

There should not be any problem with evolutionists being willing to defend evolution, without any prior conditions, in public debate at [a Campus Crusade for Christ rally at] Kansas University of all places.

(you accidentally omitted the bracketed part)

Right. And there shouldn’t be any problem with Creation Scientists Intelligent Design theorists presenting their work in scientific journals and meetings. But somehow…

And why did the Isaac Newton of Information Theory back down from a face-off in Cleveland a week or so ago?

What seems to be happening is that scientists are figuring out that you’re not going to win any “debates” where you are the visiting team, while both the referees and the audience are provided by the home team, and where the other side gets to frame the discussion and set the rules.

If the debate is held on scientific grounds, of course the creationists aren’t goign to show up. They have no science. If the debate is held on religious grounds, scientists have learned that the conclusions are foregone because that’s how religion works.

The only really neutral territory is the courts, and we notice that Dembski and Meyer (and others?) backed out there as well – and the courts consistently find that creationist arguments are purely religious and devoid of any science.

Like FL, I can’t blame Dembski for refusing to play along with any “prior conditions” which fail to award him a victory before the first pitch is thrown. After all, that’s the only way he can win.

Teach the controversy! Since there is no controversy, create the illusion of a controversy! Great marketing, isn’t it?

Comment #70523

Posted by FL on January 12, 2006 07:40 AM (e) (s)

Krishtalka, presumably an expert on evolution given his position and experience, simply ducks out altogether. No scientific reason given.

Which is not the same as no reason given. And since it’s been pointed out that you’re “accidentally” omitting important information (though I call it lying), I’d like to know what reason he did give, if any, for refusing to get involved in a “bash the Darwinist” fest during the Campus Crusade for Christ “debate” y’all tried to schedule up?

Krebs offers to steps in, but insists on a free “don’t have to defend evolution” card, as a prior condition of stepping in.

Meanwhile, Krebs’ stated intention is to “discuss some of the flaws in Dembski’s ideas”, so Dembski will NOT have an equal opportunity to enjoy a similarly free “don’t have to defend ID” card if he goes along with this gig.

In case you didn’t get the memo: evolution has already won the debate. The debate *should* be on the merits of ID as a valid scientific theory with possible explanatory power in evolution.

Wow. I do not fault Jack Krebs for offering to step in to avoid any potential PR embarrassment caused by Mr. Krishtalka’s inability to debate/dialogue with Wm. Dembski, and I don’t belittle the issues that he is expressly concerned about, but I surely do not blame Wm. Dembski one bit for refusing to play along with this ‘prior condition’ business. Mm-mmmm.

Dembski will never debate without a tilted playing field where his flaws and lousy arguments can’t be shifted onto a different topic. That’s why there needs to be “no evolution” debate, but a debate solely on the merits of ID as a scientific theory with possible explanatory power. Otherwise, may as well have Ken Ham up there with his pictures of Cavemen Riding Dinosaurs.

There should not be any problem with evolutionists being willing to defend evolution, without any prior conditions, in public debate at Kansas University of all places.

There should be a problem when you fail to point out that it’s a biased religious revival consisting of an audience that, by and large, is incapable of changing it’s entrenched dogmatic, discredited and scientifically vacuous worldview. Deliberate omission of important, relevant information that could change the view/interpretation of an event is lying. In science, it can destroy your career. In religious apologetics it gets you promoted. A morality lesson that seems to escape those on religious side of the fence.

With any luck, we’ll see FL adopt the time-tested creationist technique: When facts are uncongenial, lie. When the lie is exposed, repeat it.

Posted by Russell on January 12, 2006 08:19 AM

Right. And there shouldn’t be any problem with Creation Scientists Intelligent Design theorists presenting their work in scientific journals and meetings. But somehow…

LOL.

I’m with Rev. Flank on this: we already had the creationist-evolutionist debate the creationists pretend to want; it was in a Federal court; both sides had ample opportunity to present their respective cases, with no unfair or unrealistic constraints that allowed one-liners but not detailed explanations of facts; both sides used their opportunity as best they could; and the creationists lost, fair and square. Mr. Krebs, you should point this out whenever you are challenged to debate the issue. “Debating” these propagandist liars is useless, and now we have a good reason not to do so.

The fact that “Cdesign Proponentists” are ignoring this, only proves they’re not interested in any real public debate that they can’t rig in advance. Now, it appears, their latest tactic is to “challenge” evolutionists to a “debate,” and when the evolutionists refuse due to the creationists’ idiotic and/or unfair preconditions, the creationists use the refusal as “proof” of their enemies’ “intolerance.”

I agree with Lenny and Raging Bee: let the clowns perform at their own circus.

I do see the vexing issue. Going into a debate in which people’s minds will be “made up”, when said people are 95% scientifically illiterate and cannot distinguish falsehoods and canards is indeed pointless. In the end, said people will rely on who they trust more, or on who seemed to have a difficult time responding, and so the debate becomes an oration show.

At the same time, I guess I just get pissed constantly hearing things like, “evolutionists won’t debate ID advocates (IDiots)”

It seems like a catch-22

I thought Dover was the big Evolution Versus Intelligent Design debate organized and hosted by a disinterested (neutral) 3rd party, no? And the debate judge and audience was neutral as well, no? I even heard that debate was held in a federal building and NOT a college or church and I am under the impression that this debate was actually sponsored by the federal government.

I heard the evolutionists won that Dover debate pretty soundly, no? Additionally I heard the Discovery Institute and the theologian William Dembski were going to show up at that debate but got cold feet and did a no-show. They chickened out.

And I hear a new debate is being planned right this very moment in a tiny hick town in California. My understanding is that this debate is also going to be sponsored by a neutral 3rd party.

I hear this California debate already has a social studies teacher prepared to debate the Intelligent Design side. Some people might scoff at the thought of a simple social studies teacher defending a “science” like Intelligent Design but her biology training and biology education is identical to William Dembski’s biology training and education. Also, she has published the same amount of peer reviewed Intelligent Design papers in legitimate biology/evolution journals as Michael “it could be a space alien or time traveler” Behe. She seems quite qualified to me to defend Intelligent Design to me.

I wonder if the theologian and Sunday school teacher at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary William Dembski and the Discovery Institute will chicken out of this California debate as well.

Personally I think these neutral 3rd party debates like Dover and California are the most effective and the least controversial.

I think our approach to these rigged debate offers ought to be a cheerful -

Thanks for the offer, we’ll see you in court where the debate results actually mean something.

Jack Krebs quoted John Calvert:

“You can’t know they’re better unless they engage in a competition,” he said.

This, of course, is a spectacular piece of disinformation in and of itself. (IMO it’s one of the great lies of our culture anyway, but that’s a topic of another pet rant of mine that has nothing to do with either evolution or religion.)

Also …

CCC has rented the Lied Center .…

Perfectly appropriate, even if unintentional!

Already had the debate? Yes, several times. Don’t forget the great Arkansas debate in 1967 (Epperson v. Arkansas), the great Arkansas debate of 1981 (McLean v. Arkansas), the debate in Louisiana in 1986 and 1987 (Edwards v. Aguillard), and most lately, in a Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, courtroom.

That old Pennsylvanian, Ben Franklin, observed that truth wins in a fair fight. That’s why creationists don’t want a fair fight.

Hey FL -

As Lenny and others have pointed out, there already has been a debate in a court of law. There was no flash and glitz, no soaring rhetoric, no theater. Just the facts - the best that either side could muster.

And guess what? ID got bitch-slapped. Becuase when you strip away the theater and the spin, ID has nothing to offer.

In short, ID and Evolution went head-to-head in Dover based SOLELY on the SCIENTIFIC MERITS of each - and ID got its ass kicked.

That should be the end of the story. But in true rabid Fundie fashion, the IDiots don’t let pesky little facts get in the way of a good PR campaign.

Golly, maybe FL has a point. Maybe science supporters are afraid of open debate. I think we should all head over to Dembski/DaveScot’s blog to discuss this.

I seriously doubt that even Dembski thinks ID is science. It was created as a vehicle to trick the government into preaching creationism. Claims about scientific merit, whatever their effect in beguiling those who desperately want to believe it, are really not intended to *mean* that it has such merit.

The goal is to get creationism preached everywhere, but especially in public agencies like schools, courts, and legislatures. The merits of any strategy are measured against this goal. Not against any other.

So the creationists are correct, in relation to their goals, to push ID so long as it seems to have any remaining legs. And judging by the number of different school boards still willing to try to pull a Dover, it has plenty of legs.

It’s possible that losing these court cases, even as spectacularly as Dover, isn’t so important in relation to the goal as to lend the impression of community support to creationist schoolteachers.

After all, Judge Jones doesn’t teach 9th grade biology. Those who do include creationists who teach creationism regardless of what any court says anywhere, and those non-creationists who don’t teach evolution at all to avoid hassles.

And it appears that LOTS of creationists are teaching in high schools. When was the last time anyone heard of such a teacher being fired or reprimanded for doing so, especially by an administration sympathetic to their faith? Does the Dover decision change ANYTHING, really? Will any creationist teacher keep God’s Word a secret just because some judge somewhere else fell into the error of atheism?

I just read the NCSE “debate”. Demski and Behe make about as much sense as Mary Baker Eddy.

Hey, at least Mary Baker Eddy made testable, falsifiable predictions

In the transcript, Dembski states:

WD: Well, your, your obviously focusing on the explanatory filter[…]

When an archaeologist finds an arrowhead, um, is this just a random chunk of rock, is it perhaps a chunk of rock that would emerge out of some sort of, uh, repeated process where the thing would…chunks like that, of that form, would keep occurring. Where is, is there an intention is there an intelligence behind that. That’s how we taxo-…[crosstalk] that’s how we, [crosstalk] that’s how we taxonomize it.

Well now, that’s fascinating. So when we encounter some classes of possible artifact, we don’t actually look for some sort of difficult-to-pin-down “evidence of design”, we look for the much more tractable “evidence of fabrication”. That is, we don’t ask whether it was “designed”, we seek to determine whether it was “built”.

And in the cases of many artifacts of life, we can state… whoa! Do bees design honeycombs? They are extraordinarily well suited to a set of purposes. We know that the bees build them, because whe have observed them doing so.

Hmm…

Karen Wrote:

I can only imagine what a good lawyer would have done to him at the Dover trial.

Steve Harvey was all set to take Dembski’s deposition. The last word from our side to theirs before Dembski was withdrawn from the case was that Jeff Shallit and I would also be in attendance at the deposition. Coincidence? Perhaps.

I couldn’t stick around at the AMNH debate. I was due in Silver Spring, MD the next morning for a workshop on sonar and marine mammal mortality. I would have liked to have been able to socialize more, but my schedule was pretty tight.

Flint Wrote:

If the debate is held on religious grounds, scientists have learned that the conclusions are foregone because that’s how religion works.

I sympathize with what you’re saying but I disagree on the theological debate. I wish there would be a real theological debate with IDiots. I don’t know how one can escape classing fundamentalists as idolaters and heretics. No matter the flavor, the call to all Christians is to believe in Jesus, not Genesis; and, more generally, to have faith in, not to seek proof of, God. As others have said, let’s call the ID HOAX what it is and teach the controversy, indeed: Teach the controversy that Christianity is not defined by the Disco Ducks, Buffalo Bills, and Pitiful Pats of the world. Of course, we need to teach these things in our churches, homes, and non-governmental settings, but that’s OK. That’s the way our country was Intelligently Designed. Those people who truly do have faith need to speak out as much, if not more than, the scientists and educators. IMHO

For those in the Boston area, I just ran across this announcement of a special screening of an evo/ID documentary at the Harvard Museum of Natural History:

Special Advance Screening of “Flock of Dodos: the Evolution-Intelligent Design Circus.” February 6, 7:00 p.m. Geological Lecture Hall, 24 Oxford Street. Filmmaker and former biologist Dr. Randy Olson’s new film probes the great communications struggle around evolution vs. intelligent design being waged in today’s mass media. Olson’s humorous, enlightening and sometimes sobering journey includes in-depth interviews with proponents of intelligent design, school board members, and lawyers, and footage from an evening with evolutionists who gather for a game of poker and evolution debate. (Screening to be followed by a question-and-answer with the filmmaker and panel discussion with Harvard biologist James J. McCarthy and New York Times Science writer Cornelia Dean.) Price: $8 regular admission; $6 for HMNH members and Harvard ID holders. Tickets available at the Harvard Box Office in Harvard Square, or by calling 617-496-2222.

I wish there would be a real theological debate with IDiots. I don’t know how one can escape classing fundamentalists as idolaters and heretics. No matter the flavor, the call to all Christians is to believe in Jesus, not Genesis; and, more generally, to have faith in, not to seek proof of, God.

Indeed. Fundies don’t worship a god – they worship a Book About God and are too dumb to tell the difference. Idol-worshippers, really.

That is a matter for mainstream churches to take up with IDers. Alas, they have failed miserably to do so, and have instead allowed the fundies to wrap themselves piously in the cloak of “True Christianity(c)™”. Most Christians, worldwide, think the fundies are completely nuts, and most fundies, worldwide, have no gripe at all with any of modern science, including evolution. But you’d never know that from the “public debate”.

It’s always been a weakness in the anti-creationist movement, one that hurts us and helps the fundies.

Rev Dr Lenny Flank Wrote:

Most Christians, worldwide, think the fundies are completely nuts

Part of it, I suppose, is that the mainstream churches tend to be somewhat democratically/bureaucratically run. The Presbyterian General Assembly now only meets every two years and I think they’re still busy kicking around the gay thing. On a happy note, however, one of the pastors of my local church actively sought me out to tell me that a book is soon to be released called Misquoting Jesus. I appreciated his effort and I’m looking forward to the book (even if his ulterior motive is to get me to start coming to church again).

As an argumentation scholar new to the ID controversy, I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. The commenters are making very interesting claims about the nature of debate as an interactive communicative process, and backing their claims with heavy (if not always transparent) normative content.

Please allow me to stir the pot with two questions:

1) What is/should be the purpose of engaging in argumentation about the ID controversy?

2) Is dogmatism so entrenched in this case that achievement of this purpose is impossible?

1) What is/should be the purpose of engaging in argumentation about the ID controversy?

Depends on who you ask, I suppose. For me, what I am fighting against is summarized here:

http://www.geocities.com/lflank/fundies.htm

My aim is to prevent the ayatollah-wanna-be’s from establishing a theocratic US. And since ID is the “wedge issue” which they themselves has chosen as the focus point of that theocratic campaign, it is where I choose to oppose them. If they choose some other “wedge issue” to move to, then I will move along with them.

Other people have other aims and purposes. Some are more interested simply in protecting the integrity of science by preventing the fundie kooks from distorting science. Some are more interested in maintaining the constitutional wall of separation between church and state. And some have the aim (stated or unstated) of rooting out religious fundamentalism, or even rooting out all religion in general.

All of the anti-IDers here, though, whatever their individual outlooks, share these views: (1) ID is not science and doesn’t belong in a science classroom, and (2) the constitution’s separation of church and state must be upheld, and ID violates that separation of church and state.

Those who accept those two views are on our side. Those who don’t, aren’t. Anything else is just a tangential side issue.

2) Is dogmatism so entrenched in this case that achievement of this purpose is impossible?

My purpose has, so far, been achieved. The fundies have not (yet) managed to impose their theocracy onto the rest of us.

The “dogmatism” that appears is, largely, on the fundie side. On the anti-ID side, the “dogmatism” appears largely in the form of the dogmatic atheists who not only hold no religious beliefs of their own, but can’t stand it if someone else does either (even people on their own side). Those dogmatists, while very loud, are only a tiny minority of anti-IDers and, in my view, do it more harm than good.

As for the IDer’s “dogmatism”, it will never go away. Those who have the aim of eliminating ID/creationism forever, are bound to be disappointed.

Posted by Gordon Mitchell on January 19, 2006 01:00 AM (e)

As an argumentation scholar new to the ID controversy, I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. The commenters are making very interesting claims about the nature of debate as an interactive communicative process, and backing their claims with heavy (if not always transparent) normative content.

If you do some research you are in for a very interesting time. I recommend you check out the talk origins site (there is a link on PT main page). Also go and look at some of the ID sites.

See which side argues with facts and research. Check out who cries about censorship yet discourages open discussion.

I am not even from the USA but find it all fascinating. Especially the people who are willing to lie to forward their cause.

A particularly amusing thing is to track the pro ID people on this site. It is quite funny to watch their arguments shot down and buried under scientific data. Even funnier if you have checked out Talk Origins and see people making claims (as if they are new) that have been dealt with years ago.

Gordon, Have a read of this.

http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html

ID sure is scientific.

Hello,

While much that is written here is instructive, may I ask that the scientific community decide to trust the science and not worry so much about the Discovery Institute?

I know how worried many are about the possible course of the near future, but can it really be so bad? I mean, while it took rather a long time, Copernicus and Galileo won eventually, didn’t they? And Darwin though he wrote in a rather more religious time than our own, did so, and today is far more influential than is the Discovery Institute. Is today so different from what has always been that there is so much to worry about? Wouldn’t time spent on the controversy be better spent pursuing the facts and the truth through research?

I speak as a former creationist in the midst of a creationist crowd. For a time, when I was new to all this stuff, I thought that I had to counter Darwinism. I never did it publically, but I refused to beleive it. It was as I was taught. But over time I realized that there not only was nothing to fear from evolutionary research, it was/is a fascinating and illuminating theory (in the scientific sense of the word, not the DI sense) because it 1. makes sense, and 2. is true.

Now and then I get the chance to discuss this with friends, and while some retreat behind the bromides, some do listen. I especially enjoy the chance to talk to the high-school kids. They seem to hear more than their parents do.

Isn’t that where the debate really belongs? I applaud Jack Krebs’ attempt to debate Michael Behe, that certainly needs to be done. When it can. But in the main the facts will speak for themselves, and eventually the furor will subside and science will be taught as it should be. “The truth will out” is an old saying that I think applies.

Should we worry about minds that will be negatively affected in the meantime? I don’t think so. First, science illiteracy is so high among the general populace that the debate will not affect most of them, anyway. Second, those who are truly interested in science will be scientists, and it is those people I think who should be targeted for education, not the general public. While the public shows strong good common sense most of the time, science is something else. Most are just afraid enough of its complexity that they will not study it. How many people are afraid to look under the hood of their car? They just want the thing to run. If science just makes things run, most people will be happy enough that, if they disagree with evolution at all, it won’t matter. They’ll be too busy working and keeping the kids safe.

Most people don’t think about evolution enough to do anything about it. There’s too much for them to think about, and besides, it won’t be on the test. Football, we’ll think about. Tetrapoda, no.

The debate makes for fine high dudgeon, I suppose, but that is dangerous to both sides of the debate. I would hate for the scientific side to get so used to emotional reactions that they believe them to be the correct answers to the ID objections. Even Mr. Brazeur (may his name be blessed), for all his research and knowledge, can’t help taking a gratuitous slap at the Discovery Institute in public unnecessarily. I think it would do the public more good if science concentrated on the science instead of on the naysayers.

Mind you, this is in the manner of a plea, not a criticism. While I am not engaged in it, I admire and respect and love science and the truths it uncovers and presents to our greater understanding. That is its real strength, and that is what will triumph over all untruth, however fanatically held at the moment.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, the Discovery Institute will be no more, and science will still be speaking truth. A bit of the other stuff, too, now and then, but that will be as it always was, overcome by the facts.

I just read the NCSE “debate”. Demski and Behe make about as much sense as Mary Baker Eddy.

Hey, at least Mary Baker Eddy made testable, falsifiable predictions

… maybe, but most of “Key to the Scriptures” is the same kind of tautological gibberish.

To Gordon Mitchell’s points…

I think most people here are arguing to the general audience who are, as of yet, uninformed and incapable of making a sound decision based on reason. I hold absolutely no belief that I’m going to convince most hardcore anti-evolution believers of anything. The reason to continue a “debate” is to ensure that these people do not convince others with their highly bogus arguments.

This is also the same reason that the debates should be very selectively chosen, and the format carefully regulated. You don’t want to give ammo to them, and in a way, the scientific community should be engaging in a sort of brutal rhetorical guerilla war - popping up only when it will have the maximum impact and delivering crippling blows to key links of the ID theory, then vanishing again to let them rant as a result.

Science has, on its side, reason, fact, and sound practice. The “debate” is a farce, but because most people don’t have the information to decide, it is important to work to disseminate that.

Exactly. When I debated Michele Bachmann - a Minnesota nutcase legislator - on KKMS - a christian radio station - moderated by Joyce Harley, I met Joyce’s husband Bill - who is a big christian right person - but thinks creationism is nonsense. I believe there’s a more division than first meets the eye - and that debate would divide the audience - rather than rally the audience against godless atheism.

They want to frame the debate to being atheistic evolution vs faith - and when you wanted to reframe the debate, they had to bravely run away.….

In reply to Craig Smith’s thoughtful comment.

To begin, I agree with you completely, except in one specific context that is, however, of vital importance. So I do not intend to argue against your observations, they are all more or less valid and I too decry the waste of resources, intelligence and thought that is represented in the selfless efforts of so many people to expose the fraud of ‘discrediting science’ to the unknowable majority of people who only read these tracts and never actively participate. Myself among them for the most part.

The exception is this: science is arguably the most powerful skill we humans have yet invented, mainly because it is so remorselessly intent on winkling out continually improved ‘truth’. But secondarily, the refinement of that ‘truth’ leads to other kinds of power, the enormity of which so far exceeds the effective means at civilizations’ disposal even 100 years ago that the possibility of its misuse by wrongheaded, delusional, ideologues with a personal agenda is a horror that is hard to contemplate.

Further, make no mistake, the fundamentalists have committed themselves to an argument that is an attack on ALL science, not just biology or evolution. To disprove the ancient earth they must confabulate spurious refutations of quantum mechanics. To discredit the fossil record they must disprove sedimentology, paleontology, structural geology, and tectonophysics. To impugn the veracity of cosmology they must confound the knowledge of astronomy, astrophysics, planetary geology, and mechanics. They have no reluctance to assert the general theory of relativity is a lie. They would willingly allow the sale of unpasteurized milk because their ideology dictates that microorganisms do not cause disease. The fundamentalists are at war with ALL science, not just biology.

One could make the case that should the control of nuclear weapons fall into the hands of ‘fundamentalists’ of whatever ilk, when pressed, they would use them wholesale. One could make the case that when faced with a global pandemic such as some (inevitable?) variant on HIV that is less conveniently discretionary in its infectious behavior, ‘fundamentalists’ having re writ science to suit their ideology, would be dumbstruck and incapable of responding in time to make any difference. One could make the case that without a truly scientific approach to achieving some self control in the growth of human population; resource, agricultural, social and behavioral crises of (dare I say it?) biblical proportions will occur. I won’t go on, but I could.

It is plain that the fundamentalists are making their efforts at the weakest points, they aim to inculcate their doctrines in school children and politicians. They avowedly hope to convert the US into a theocracy. No doubt, perhaps subtly, their motives include to some extent the phenomenal capacity of the US to affect the global picture. They covet such power. If they are allowed to succeed, then those of us who could have prevented them, may well be remembered, if indeed there is any memory at all, as having committed the most egregious crime against humanity in all history.

The might, wisdom (hopefully) and creativity of free society cannot be allowed, through ignorance, indolence and indoctrination, to fall into the hands of the rabidly irrational and self-serving few who would exploit any capability to further their aims, ruthlessly.

They (fundamentalists) must be opposed. And they must be defeated. If they are not, and somehow the fabric of science is unwoven, the profound harmony between humanity and nature that is ‘possible’ through science is lost, then the apocalyptic visions of ‘end times’ will seem like a day at Disney world, with the ironic twist, that the believers will be shown no more quarter than the billions of weary and care wore individuals who grub each day for mere sustenance laboring under the beliefs of their so called leaders.

I would only add, for the benefit of my brethren outside the US, that I do not for a moment discount that the world is well endowed with many egalitarian and fairly just societies and that the US is not necessarily the lynch pin holding everything together. Yet we must take into consideration, that the country has the capability of seriously disrupting the function of the whole planet, should it get into a hissy fit over some hypothetical challenge to its hegemony, especially if that hegemony is vested in the minds of fundamentalist ideologues. Which at present, at least to some extent, it is.

We must fight them, to do otherwise - to only concentrate on our chosen disciplines and try to further science alone, in the midst of this phenomenal campaign of disinformation, lies and duplicity, would be a rationalization tantamount to that made by the developers of VX gas.

Yes, in an ideal world, it would be fine to turn aside and ignore the turmoil, for the awesome capacity of science to converge on what is knowable would indeed always prevail. But the world is not ideal, and the sophistication and astounding progress of science has left the vast majority of people utterly in the dust. It is up to those who have some sense of ‘what we know’ to argue it, if necessary, with passion, for great things can hinge on small decisions.

My sincere gratitude to those you argue in favor of reason.

That should be

those ‘of’ you ‘who’ agrue in the last line.

I live at 87510 Commonwealth in Seattle. Been up here before?

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This page contains a single entry by Jack Krebs published on January 11, 2006 9:59 PM.

Applications of Evolution 3 - tradeoffs in resistance. was the previous entry in this blog.

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