Judge Jones interview in The Lutheran


Today the magazine The Lutheran has made its interview with Judge Jones freely available on its website. October’s cover story is on science and religion, and includes a series of stories on the Lutheran perspective on the evolution/creationism issue. My parents get The Lutheran, so now my strange job has landed in their mailbox. There is no escape!

The Jones interview is notable for including some details on Jones’s experience in becoming a judge – quite an involved process – and on his religious upbringing, which has not been treated in depth elsewhere. We also get some more on his views on the relationship between the judiciary and politics, which Jones has made into a bit of a personal quest following the post-decision claim that Jones had “stabbed in the back” his political allies.

Reference: Mark A. Staples (2006). “‘Not science’: Judge John E. Jones: Lutheran tells about his history-making, intelligent design decision.” The Lutheran, October 2006.


Could you please check and correct the first couple of links? Thank you.

He had an easier time with a letter from a young student in North Carolina who wrote that he was “upset” with the judge’s decision for “taking God out of the schools” but still asked for an autographed picture.

Why that poor misguided child. He didn’t understand that ID is real honest-to-goodness science, and has nothing whatsoever, at all, in any way, to do with religion. (Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.)

“to argue politely.” I liked that…

I fixed the links, sorry about that.

Syntax Error: mismatched tag at line 31, column 68, byte 2671 at /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/mach/5.18/XML/Parser.pm line 187.


If you want to see a STUPID KJV Onlyism website, here it is. These are the guys you should be harassing :).


Yes. We Are. But as any serious Bible-student knows, DIVISION from false doctrine, satanic influences, compromise and worldliness is commanded. The false idea that because someone is a Christian, or professes to be a Christian, we’re not to “judge” their error and separate (or divide) ourselves from them is simply wrong. We’re not only to separate ourselves from them but also warn others. ME: so far so good

And yes, cause divisions… ME: (AHH of course I institute this into each and every one of my sermons :)).

Our prayer is to cause a DIVISION among Christians. We’re presenting the truth about Contemporary Christian Music and our prayer is that Christians will see CCM for what it really is (“wolves in sheep clothing” Matt. 7:15) and DIVIDE from it.

Well, great. We’ll just divide ourselves from the KJV-Onlyism cult and we’ll be good to go then, right :).


http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evol[…]_history.htm - another KJV Onlyism. All of this evidence mentioned, none provided. No wonder Christians are so misunderstood about the controversy :). These are your guys FYI. Hit them every now and again.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evol[…]no_proof.htm - Actually this part isn’t too bad :).

http://www.contenderministries.org/[…]uestions.php - here’s some questions for you guys to answer.

I’m on your guy’s side here: (Other recommended reading: Darwin’s Black Box, by Michael J. Behe; Darwin on Trial, by Phillip E. Johnson; Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, by Michael Denton; and Icons of Evolution: Science or Myth? Why Much of What We Teach About Evolution is Wrong, by Jonathan Wells (at least they’re honest), Jody F. Sjogren.)


These are pretty good for a laugh: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Fals[…]raft/666.htm





My Eschatology kind of semi-agrees with this stuff, in that Jesus will return someday. When it comes to Eschatology, its usually opinionated and nothing more (of course, its primarily based around future events that have not yet occurred). But for the most part, its not exactly as extremist as these groups of Christians are. I believe Satan exists, and is behind every evil act within the world, but at the same time, this biochip thing seems kind of goofy to me. My thoughts are that basically, waste of time and money here. I believe most of this has already taken place, and that its even possible that we’re just waiting for Jesus’s return to earth. I believe he’ll return and everyone’s spirit will be resurrected and thats the end of the show. Nothing more there. The whole, all politicians use Satanic symbols though IS NOT what I believe, just for the record :). That in effect is quite amusing as far as I regard it. Good for a laugh folks.

Oh, by the way.….I still haven’t received the article from AIG on this subject, probably because we don’t care to write about it :).

Carry on folks. ID and their pseudoScientific political schemes, but of course :).

This is from Dumbski’s Blog. This is about the only thing I agree with him on :). The Top 10 Things Archaeologists Do Not (or rarely) Find!

10-Dinosaur Bones 9-Mummies 8-Precious Jewelry 7-Alien Artifacts 6-Treasure Chests 5-The Lost Tribes of Israel 4-Whole Pots 3-Secret Tunnels 2-Gold 1-A Steady Job!!!

I think one of the other threads has somehow sprung a leak into this one, or something, because I don’t see what any of that has to do with Judge Jones’ interview in The Lutheran.

About as much as I care about it myself. Absolutely none :).

Nick — I find it past time for the moderator’s to begin calling shenanigans on the infamous Dr M&M. His trolling all over many threads is way past funny by now…


Who’s trolling?

Right David, you haven’t done a single thing about anything I’ve stated on this site. I’m still waiting for that oh so glamorous evidence that will move Evolution from cultish belief to Science. What separates Evolution from cults?

Almost every time I see Judge Jones speak I am struck by a sense of how lucky America is that this important case was randomly assigned to him. I do not know if all judges, presented with this case, would have been able to reach such a mastery of the issues at hand.

Notice the quiet but keen swipes at the Discovery Institute in here:

Some critics thought Jones went too far in ruling on whether intelligent design is science or not. “Both sides asked me to render a decision on that precise issue,” he said. “Had I not done so, there was every chance that this same issue would have arisen before another tribunal.

“I didn’t think a school district somewhere else should be exposed to the costs and fees that the Dover School District ended up paying (more than $1 million) as a result of my ducking that issue.”

And Schlafly, for that matter:

“The decision had nothing to do with politics and polls,” he said. “It is entirely appropriate for the executive and legislative branches of government to respond to the will of the people. But as a federal judge, I’m charged with focusing on legal precedents, the rule of law and the U.S. Constitution. My work has everything to do with reviewing the evidence as presented in the courtroom and legal precedents, such as Supreme Court tests used in previous establishment clause cases.

“If I had disregarded the facts and invented a new test, other than those tests offered by the Supreme Court, that would have made me an activist judge. These values are not Republican or Democratic. They are American values.”

Notice the quiet but keen swipes at the Discovery Institute in here

To keep it fair, looks more of a red herring to me. Its not relevant unless you can show a true analogy between the two events. Otherwise, it just results in a false analogy and is basically worthless.


One almost begins to wonder if this guy’s posts are being randomly generated by a computer program or something.

I find it past time for the moderator’s to begin calling shenanigans on the infamous Dr M&M. His trolling all over many threads is way past funny by now…

But. but.. you haven’t refuted any of his “arguments” (when they are somewhat coherent). This guy reminds me of davison, only dumber. BTW, davison is now an important dude at UD, and even gets aong with phil skell. Wish Dr M&M would join them.

Hey Doc, if you’re finished shitting in everyone’s mailbox, again, would you mind telling me (1) how do we recognize witches, in your opinion? and (2) should women be allowed to speak in church, in your opinion?

I want everyone to see just how nutty you really are.

For comparison, I would like to remind everyone that Time Cube has never been meaningfully refuted by anyone.

Well, I’ll try the nice approach first: Dr. Michael Martin, please keep your posts on-topic for the thread.

Close call! I thought Lenny was on my case and I’ve been as quiet as a C3H!

My two cents, however, on the Jones issue is that of course he ruled the way he did. Having followed the trial very closely and read the transcripts, Jones would have been an “activist judge” to have ruled otherwise, especially in light of Barbara Forrest’s scholarship.

Pretty decent article, though there’s not much new material in it. I did especially like, however, that the magazine posted the list of christian clergy who believe evolution and their religion are compatible.


I’ve always been confused about the lutheran church. Was it not, after all, Martin Luther who wrote, “[There is] no more dangerous thing than a richly endowed and adroit reason, especially if she enters into spiritual matters which concern the soul and God. For it is more possible to teach an ass to read than to blind such a reason and lead it right; for reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed.”? And “Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees it must put out of sight, and wish to know nothing but the word of God”? How could a church with such a founder so easily harmonize their interpretations of scripture with scientific observation? It boggles the mind.

I was raised Lutheran, and though I’ve been out of the church for a while, I can at least try to answer your question, Sounder.

Essentially, churches change, but the central tenets remain. The main concepts of Martin Luther are still relevant - among them, that we can have a direct relationship with Jesus, that we do not require the scriptures to be interpreted for us - his dislike of reason is not. Through Sunday School and First Communion classes, when we studied his life, we didn’t learn of his attacks on reason. (This isn’t surprising, though, as we covered very little of his life. We learned enough about him to understand the schism from the Catholic church, but Martin Luther as a person was a very minor portion of the entire process.)

If anything, his view of reason as evil comes from his concept of needing a personal faith. If we apply reason to Jesus’s life, we see he couldn’t have turned water into wine, walked on water, or come back from the dead. Rather, faith needs to defy reason and say that Jesus indeed do these things, in spite of all of the evidence and rational arguments against it. It’s being able to say that I believe this as a matter of faith, not as a matter of reason.

However, for a full, complete, and current explanation of the Lutheran Church’s beliefs, I’m probably not the best person to ask - all I know is what I was taught and remembered.

Sounder - “I did especially like, however, that the magazine posted the list of christian clergy who believe evolution and their religion are compatible.”

Well, I can think of at least one Lutheran school that needs to see it, the middle school I was just fired from for teaching evolution as science. Bloody DFW’s.

As I understand it, Lutheran’s are not all on the same page. They have a Missouri Synod that is more liberal than the Wisconsin Synod, and they hate each other I have been told. The WI Synod, as I understand it, is a real YEC type, with no women in leadership roles.

To me it’s meh, who cares? They are both crazy religious nuts.… Just my opinion, so let’s not get into our own intercine squable again eh?

BTW - I call Troll on HG and “Dr” Michale Martin.

I like Martin’s trolling, it serves as living example of how ignorant critics of evolution truly are. If those idiotic questions posed in his link are the best his side can do, evolution is truly on solid footing. Aquinas is truly rolling over in his grave.

I don’t think HG is a troll per se. He wants to have meaningful discourse, he just doesn’t have the stomach for where it leads, sort of like the kid standing on the end of the high dive wanting to jump but lacking the courage.

Likewise (and more on topic, sorry), Judge Jones’ critics show how intellectually vapid their positions are by the kinds of criticisms they toss his way. Barring intelligent design from science class strips people of their civil liberties O’Reilly? A Bush appointee and fine Christian becomes an “activist judge” when you don’t care for his decisions? It’s great debating someone when all you have to do to win is let them talk.

From Wikipedia: Lutherans believe God made the world, humanity included, perfect, holy and sinless.

That freakin fundie Jones!!

A woman is a witch is she weighs as much as a duck. QED.


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This page contains a single entry by Nick Matzke published on October 10, 2006 1:37 PM.

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