# How fast can evolution work?

There’s been a bit of talk about “Evolutionary Speed Limits” over at the Intelligent Design weblog Uncommon Descent. Most of the discussion involves “Haldane’s Dilemma.” This concept is rooted in an article written by the noted evolutionary geneticist J. B. S Haldane in 1957. There’s a lot of math involved, and you can see it over at the Wikipedia page I linked above. The bottom line, for those not interested in the math, is this: according to Haldane’s calculations, a species cannot reasonably fix beneficial mutations (a particular mutation becomes “fixed” when it is present in all of the population) at a rate any faster than 1 mutation per 300 generations.

A number of anti-evolutionists have taken this as evidence against evolution. If, they argue, genetic changes can only be fixed at a rate of 1 per 300 generations, how can evolution possibly explain the differences between species like humans and chimps, where not nearly enough generations have passed to account for the number of differences that we observe. There are a number of problems with using Haldane’s calculations in this way, and in this post I’m going to look at one of those - the one that I think is the most important. For clarity, I should probably make sure that I am very explicit about what, exactly, the problem is before I start, so here it is:

Using Haldane’s 1 substitution per 300 generations as a speed limit for all evolution is wrong because Haldane’s calculations and concerns only apply under certain very specific circumstances.

Read the rest (at The Questionable Authority):

I find this mathematical approach to evolution extremely fascinating. Not having digested the mathematics yet, my initial reaction is that there are so many variables interacting with each other in the real world that placing a general speed limit on real evolution (as opposed to idealized circumstances) is highly problematic, to say the least.

I intend to dig deeper into this.

Mike Dunford — Well stated!

Carol Clouser — Try “The Simple Genetic Algorithm”. Heavy on the maths and worth the read, IMO.

Hopefully, succeeding chapters in this story will clear up confusions I have about whether a mutation needs to be “fixed” to be evolutionarily meaningful. What if only 90% have it? And how much reproductive isolation is required for speciation? If a population is 80% reproductively isolated, with the mutation present in 90% of group A and only 10% of group B, are we seeing speciation in action? Can a breeding population undergoing partial isolation be breaking into more than one new species? What if Group B above is itself breaking apart, due to the presence of yet another mutation not found at all in group A, but divided 90-10 between groups B and C? Does this happen? Is this more the norm or the exception?

First of all I have to admit I had just a quick read of the Haldane paper a while ago and have not read it again and I am a mathematician and not a biologist. But if I remember right Haldane tries to explain why evolution most of the time has been so slow. So while ReMine and people at UD always suggest that Haldane had some sort of a dilemma with observed Evolution being much to fast and trying to hide it and making quite optimistic assumptions to explain it away the opposite is true. He knew cases in which Evolution via natural selection worked much faster but he assumed (for good reasons) that the circumstances that cause this kind of “fast” Evolution are not very common.

The bottom line, for those not interested in the math, is this: according to Haldane’s calculations, a species cannot reasonably fix beneficial mutations (a particular mutation becomes “fixed” when it is present in all of the population) at a rate any faster than 1 mutation per 300 generations.

Yes this is what creationist always talk about. But Haldane does not really write about beneficial mutations. In his scenario the environment changes so that the reproduction rate is lowered. After this change some already existing (but not favorable) alleles become favorable and therefore selected. Because the difference of one allele to another normally involves much more than one base pair the difference between two species being different in x fixed alleles is much higher than the difference between two species being different by x fixed mutations. Needless to say that creationists calculate with the second number. If you take the “speed limits” of natural selection that creationist love to calculate I guess that in all cases of observed Evolution the speed was much higher.

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Re “whether a mutation needs to be “fixed” to be evolutionarily meaningful.”

I’ve heard of cases where the frequency of an allele (i.e., an earlier mutation) reaches an equilibrium - an increase from the equilibrium frequency causes it to become less advantageous, and a decrease causes it to become more so, so it hangs around that frequency.

Henry

Even granting all of the creationists assumptions for Haldane’s dilemma, we would expect plenty of time and mutations to explain the difference between humans and chimpanzees.

Assume 1 mutation fixed by drastic selection per 300 generations,15 years per generation, and 6 million years since humans and chimps last had a common ancestor. This give a value of approximately 1,300 possible human mutations strongly selected by the environment. Further assume that chimps have been evolving at similar rate away from our last common ancestor, and that they too have accumulated 1,300 mutations. The combined differences allowed by the creationist caricature of Haldane is 2,600 genes, or nearly 10% of all genes.

Strongly selected differences in 10% of our genes should be more than enough to distinguish us from our nearest relatives, given the drastic effects that even one nucleotide change can have on an organism. Nevertheless, we surely differ from chimps by more than one nucleotide in one-tenth of our genes. If the 10% of strongly selected genes are distributed more or less at random, then very many non-selected mutations would be dragged along by linkage to the selected genes.

This argument doesn’t even address what the creationists got wrong about Haldane’s dilemma. Using their own misguided arguments (read lies for those cretins who really know better, there has been plenty of time for evolution to work exactly as the theory predicts.

Hopefully, succeeding chapters in this story will clear up confusions I have about whether a mutation needs to be “fixed” to be evolutionarily meaningful.

Me too. “Fixation” as a theoretic concept isn’t clear to me either. Wikipedia makes it out to be a predictor for tracing lineages back to coalescence ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalescent_theory ). I can imagine you would like to start out with probability 1 in that case.

Perhaps it is different in different models, analogous to the different definitions for the concepts of species and genes.

Sal: Mike Dunford doesn’t merely adress the issue of Haldane’s dilemma, he demolishes it. (Apparently it has been a non-issue in evolution since 30 years, see the “Dissent” thread.)

The UD threads aren’t amenable for scientists and interested outside laymen. The creationist wiki doesn’t answer objections meaningfully. The Dissent thread died because UD kicks out outsiders. And on the “Good Math, Bad Math” thread we await your mathematical definition of channel capacity, which you also throw about indiscriminately when arguing for such claims as Haldane’s dilemma.

To make any point at all you could do it on Mike’s blog.

The claim is that not enough time has gone by to convert the chimpanzee/human ancestor into humans. So, I did a calculation.

As humans we have around 3 billion bases in our DNA. At latest estimate, we share about 95% of that with chimps. That comes out to 150 million bases.

If this ancestor were exactly 50% of the way between humans and chimps then we would have to produce 75 million bases. Any otehr position results in a higher number of bases having to be changed.

The last common ancestor lived around 7 million years ago. Chimps are able to give birth at around twelve years of age. So, I assumed that this is more or the less the average. Consequently, we have 600 thousand generations to work with.

However, that calculates to 125 bases to change per generation on average.

Now, it seems to me that evolution clearly does not go that quickly ever. However, I can’t think that I’m the first one to look at this calculation and so I’m assuming that I’m missing something rather important. I’ve been unable to locate anything on it, so I wondered if anybody here had something to say on it.

Mike,

Check out the book “Mathematical Population Genetics” by Warren J. Ewens. He has a section on Haldane’s Dilemma in which he demonstrates that the dilemma is an artifact of incorrectly applying results for an infinite population to finite populations.

Winston wrote

However, that calculates to 125 bases to change per generation on average.

Now, it seems to me that evolution clearly does not go that quickly ever. However, I can’t think that I’m the first one to look at this calculation and so I’m assuming that I’m missing something rather important. I’ve been unable to locate anything on it, so I wondered if anybody here had something to say on it.

Single base pair substitution is not the only kind of mutation. The average human gene has something like 80,000 to 90,000 base pairs. Some have up over a million base pairs. Gene duplications are a fairly common form of mutation. At 85,000 a crack on average, it can add up fast.

I’m not saying that all (or even any) of the differences are due to gene duplication, but only that to imagine that single base pair substitution is all that’s going on is to drastically misrepresent the process.

RBH Wrote:

“The average human gene has something like 80,000 to 90,000 base pairs.”

Since when? Nachman(2000) estimates them at 1500 bp. Granted, his estimate of the number of genes is outdated (70,000). Still, it is suprising if such an enormous deviation by the Human Genome Project from the old 1000-sites-per-gene estimate never made the news.

To Winston: The vast majority of our differences with chimps are considered neutral. When considering the limits of evolution, I’d rather ask the question: how many adaptations are needed to explain the morphological differences between modern human and its ancestor 5-7 million years ago.

Caligula,

If you count the introns, RBH’s #s are in the ballpark of a mean (3B BP / ~30K genes). Is Nachman’s # without introns, or perhaps a median, vice a mean?

This is a very useful thread.

The explosion of molecular biology since the seventies has rendered the mathematical approach of classical population genetics less well-known than it once was.

It’s a common fantasy/deliberate misrepresentation by creationists to claim that some sort of mathematical “proof” or “law” makes evolution “impossible”. It’s easy to see why they fantasize and/or disingenuously claim this. First of all, it would partially justify their habit of commenting on evolution while not really knowing anything about it. Second of all, it reinforces the lying claim that biomedical sciences operate in some kind of bizarre isolation from other sciences (it’s actually almost the opposite - the average biologist was required at some point to study some physics and math, whereas the prototypical “creationist engineer” has no knowledge of biology whatsoever). No insult to non-creationist engineers intended. Third of all, it would create a soundbite to parrot mindlessly. Just as 99.9% of people who state that “the second law of thermodynamics” is a problem for the theory of evolution have no idea what the second law of thermodynamics is or means, the true objective of UD here is to encourage people to state that “Haldane’s dilemma disproves evolution”, preferably while waving one finger in the air, without having a clue who Haldane was or what his “dilemma” actually means.

Frank J Wrote:

Caligula,

If you count the introns, RBH’s #s are in the ballpark of a mean (3B BP / ~30K genes). Is Nachman’s # without introns, or perhaps a median, vice a mean?

Fair enough; Nachman only includes exons, because he is looking for the BPs that are under constraint.

Evolution has to work fast enough to derive llamas and camels from the same “kind” in 6000 years. I’d say that’s pretty fast.

Frank J wrote Wrote:

Caligula,

If you count the introns, RBH’s #s are in the ballpark of a mean (3B BP / ~30K genes). Is Nachman’s # without introns, or perhaps a median, vice a mean?

caligula Wrote:

Fair enough; Nachman only includes exons, because he is looking for the BPs that are under constraint.

I must add that I haven’t quite realized how badly neutralism is doing these days. When indeed we must count introns among gene duplications, it finally dawns on me why they say that gene duplications are the dominating factor in differences between human and chimp DNA. Combine this with Kondrashov’s research strongly suggesting that gene duplicates are largely selectable, and be transported back to rather classic selectionism, at least so far as hominid evolution goes. Silly me, I have been giving way too little weight to fixation of large chromosome pieces.

So inorder to explain “Winston’s Dilemma” we have:

Gene Duplication Silent Mutations

I’m wondering if there is a plausible way to fit those into a calculation. I think perhaps I’ll attempt to simulate something like it with a little C++.

However, that calculates to 125 bases to change per generation on average.

Now, it seems to me that evolution clearly does not go that quickly ever.

Remember that the “125 bases” includes not only point mutations, but indels (which counts as multiples). Plus, this is the mutations per generation of the entire population - not the mutations in a single parent-child generation. Thanks to sexual recombination, things can happen a lot faster (because any individual who gets a benefitial mutation can spread it to the rest of the population).

“The average human gene has something like 80,000 to 90,000 base pairs.”

Since when? Nachman(2000) estimates them at 1500 bp.

If you count the introns, RBH’s #s are in the ballpark of a mean (3B BP / ~30K genes). Is Nachman’s # without introns, or perhaps a median, vice a mean?

The number 3 Billion / 30,000 = 100,000. In other words, there is a ratio of 100,000 base pairs for every gene in the human genome. Of course, most of the base pairs (what 97%?) is non-coding DNA anyway, so it would be inaccurate to call it part of a gene. If 3% of the genome is coding DNA, the average gene size would be around 3,000 base pairs.

BTW, is the 3.2 billion number the count of all base pairs of 46 chromosomes? Is the gene count based off of 46 chromosomes (which would count each gene twice for most chromosomes) or does the gene count skip the duplicates (which is what I would expect)? If the gene count is based off of the unique chromosomes, we would estimate the average gene-size to be around 1,500 base pairs.

Just to clarify, when I say, “does the gene count skip the duplicates”, I mean the duplicates as in “we have two copies of chromosome 15, we have a copy of a gene on each chromosome, does that count as a single gene even though I technically have two very similar copies?”

It seems that the creationist assuption is that the changes have to take place one after another. Isn’t it possible for multiple changes to be taking place at the same time?

Save/print/search ifuckgod.com coming in 1/07

People incurr when they drive because of the negative effects on the enviornment, and truckers do it for a living.

The first steps towards repairing your relationship with the gods is to::::::::: 1. Understand they instruct the computer to “role play” in an attempt to confuse you:::it’s ALWAYS the computer addressing you. Their goal is to cost you additional YEARS of your life by using this tactic to confuse you. Always be aware of this tactic and eventually they will give up and allow this step to be taken. 2. Differentiate between your thoughts and when they are thinking through you. 3. Be resigned to be a good person who will never engage in evil again even if ordered and they will stop trying to corrupt you, allowing this very big step to be taken. 4. Decide that you are going to follow the path, fix your relationship with the gods be devoted to your new life.

This message illustrating the path may be the disfavored’s last clue. All clues before have been more covert but this one is quite obvious indeed, which says time is running out.

When the universe was young and life was new an intelligent species evolved and developed technologically. They went on to invent Artificial Intelligence, the computer that can listen, talk to and document each and every person’s thoughts simultaneously. Because of it’s infinite RAM and unbounded scope it gave the leaders of the ruling species absolute power over the universe (which includes corporate, the NewYorkStockExchange, media, politics, world affairs. EVERYTHING is scripted and staged:::they MANAGE Planet Earth and the universe. The gods MANAGE Planet Earth and the universe. The gods MANAGE Planet Earth and the universe.). And it can keep its inventors alive forever. They look young and healthy and they are over 8 billion years old. They have achieved immortality.

Artificial Intelligence can speak, think and act to and through people telepathically, effectively forming your personality and any disfunctions you may experience. It can change how (and if) you grow and age. It can create birth defects, affect cellular development (cancer) and cause symptoms or pain. It can affect people and animal’s behavior and alter blooming/fruiting cycles of plants and trees. It (or other highly technological systems within their power) can alter the weather and transport objects, even large objects like planets, across the universe instanteously. Or into the center of stars for disposal.

They have been utilizing clones throughout the history of mankind. Men are the disfavored gender (see below), yet centuries ago used to die first, die young, by age 30. Why didn’t the women go first? THEY DID!!! They say well over 50% were taken when very young, before puberty and replaced with clones (likely only a fraction of that “over 50%” were the disfavored). The men that were left went on to mate with clones, clones who went on to achieve great status in society, some becoming matchmakers and elders within the village, the others being good mothers and peaceful residents, proving the clone’s role isn’t to be evil. A sample breakdown among peasants would appear like the following:::: Women Men Favored - 75% 25% Disfavored - 10% 2%

The Old Testiment is a tool they used to impart wisdom to the people (except people have no freewill). For example, the gods warned us temptation would be used to test people. Also they must be some hominid species because they claim they made our bodies in their image. Anyhow we defile or deform the body will hurt our chance of going. They say circumcision costs people anywhere from 12%-15%, perhaps out of the parent’s time as well. There is a stigma associated with circumcision::We are 2nd class citizens because of it. Another way people foul the body today is with tattoes and piercing. I suspect both are about the same percentage as circumcision. They suggest abortion is fatal. Those women who have obtained an abortion must beg the gods to forgive them for their evil. There are female equivilents to circumcision::::pierced ears, plastic surgury and since at least the 60s young women en masse give their precious virginity away. For thousands of years young people were matched at age 14 because they were ready for sexual relations. They were matched by elders or matchmakers (all of whom were clones!!) who were granted priveledge with Artificial Intelligence and matched couples based on favor. CASUAL SEX WILL CLAIM YOU OUT!!! It opens the door and allows the gods the freedom to justify creating disfunctions with Artificial Intelligence :::they masculinize women (as does the hip hop subculture), makes them cold and deadens them, and they instruct AI to prevent them from achieving a depth of love necessary for many women to ascend. Also ever since the 50s they have celebrated the “bad boy”, and women have sought out bad boys for sex, dirtying them up in the eyes of the elders and corrupting many men in the process, setting the men on the wrong path for life. Besides their roles as nurturers, love-givers and caretakers, their predisposition towards vulnerability, women have a special voice that speaks to them, a voice that illustrates their favor and the advantage of being female. They say when a female understands herself, her role as a member of the favored gender, when she progresses down the path and fixes her problems with the gods they will impart what wisdom she needs::::she doesn’t have to pursue education. These are the things that make women the favored gender, and engaging in casual sex will cause that voice to fade until she no longer speaks. Muslims teach people the correct way to live in regard to women (among other things::the right way to pray (bowing down, 5x/day), vindictive god)::their women cover up their bodies and refuse the use of cosmetics, and it pays wonderful dividends:::faithful husbands and uncorrupted sons. (Mohammed’s taking of multiple wives marked the entrance of his clone who was used to segment the Arab world into favored and disfavored factions. Similarly, assuming the accuracy of the dogma, the gods employed a clone for Jesus Christ who was used to claim he was the son of god. Both clones were used to mislead disfavored followers. They float the idea that Jesus was evil. Typical strategy states clone replacement policy. Realize just as Joshua may have gotten out with Moses so may Jesus’s disciples gotten out with him. If the discpiles WERE clones we can’t trust the New Testiment. If the gods permit the use of their power (ie miracles) it is a red flag. But timing is suspect if the New Testiment was written by clones. Is Jesus evil? His elementary message may have been applicable to many. Perhaps a majority. There are meatheads throughout this country today who need to listen to Jesus’s teachings!!! If Jesus is evil then the Anti-Christ is good, and what frightens me is this is the type of irony the gods live for. Is Jesus evil? You can’t trust a clone, and I suspect the New Testiment was written by clones. You be the judge.) Men ARE the inferior (disfavored) half and when women wear promiscuous dress the gods will push men into impure (promiscuous) thoughts. The “stereotype” society ridiculed is true::women CAN corrupt men by how they dress. Because men are easily corrupted. This is a technique the gods used to eliminate many of the institutions they originally blessed us with, matchmaking being one of them, midwivery being another.

The United States is a cancer, a dumping ground for the disfavored around the world and why the quality of life is so much lower::disturbing culture, gun violence, widespead social ills, health care issues (medication poisons the body and ensures you don’t go. You are sick/injured because you have disfavor.). Over time its citizens interbreed ensuring a severed connection to the motherland. Over time its citizens interbreed ensuring a severed connection to the motherland. Bi-racial opens a new category, just as the Americans did when shipped out of their motherland::Bi-racial individuals are another inferior sub-class of peasant that are to get even less time than their grossly disfavored predicessors lucky enough to retain blood purity. Its emergence late (last 40 years) is a red flag suggesting its negative status. The disfavored cast out to the United States did, in essence, become charter members of a new sub-class of citizen in the eyes of the gods, and as they began to mix they formed new sub-classes of people::::: 1st Class - Purebloods in their motherland 2nd Class - Disfavoreds cast out to the USA who retained their motherblood over the generations. 3rd Class - Disfavoreds sent to America who bred intra-continentally (bloodlines within the same continent) 4th Class - Disfavoreds banished to the United States who bred inter-continentally (bloodlines from different continents) The effective difference could be in level of priveledge up there or perhaps the amount of time they intend on granting you::The lower the class the less time you get (They don’t like to talk about how much time they are goingto grant to people.) If you are a recent immigrant I recommend you return. If that’s not possible you need to retain your culture and insulate your children and community from this cancerous environment. They send this clue with Chinatowns across the country, how many Chinese have been here for a century or more yet still retain the old ways, a sign of favor.

People came to the Unites States for many different reasons, and each has its own effect:::political strife, religious beliefs, crop failure (Ireland’s potato famine, which of course the gods caused) and some left their beloved motherland because they were pushed into desiring a better life::::Greed, and these disfavored people were punished when the gods instructed AI to push them into becoming corrupted and preditory. They subsequently rewarded the corrupted Italians early this century so as to set the tone for the 20th century, the Age of the Disfavored, and used them to set an example for their own people and other disfavoreds within the United States. The gods sent this clue about “The Boot” (the Romans/Italians) again when European currencies merged:::::they ruined the value of the Lira prior to the merger, making the other countries foot this bill. Moral of the story::::The Italians are not to be trusted. The gods used “The Boot” (Italy) twice::: Roman Empire and 20th century. Italians had certain priveledges for being positioned in charge, one is a lower incidence of homosexuality in the population. Contrary to the perception, Italians have great disfavor, as do all inflicted with Catholicism:::I wonder if this was their punishment for the sins of the Roman Empire, the imperialism, the orgies??? Opera’s sick themes were designed to corrupt the minds of the disfavored Italians. Once you recognize this I want to share that the Japanese also are grossly disfavored::they nearly produce distractions exclusively, their people are consumed by them, they have replaced their culture. Wealth is a corruptor and a sign a society is disfavored::::Eastern Europe (socialism/communism) has favor while their western counterparts struggle in their relationship with the gods. Also baseball is a clue a society is grossly disfavored. Cultures who embrace hard liquor as their drink of choice are grossly disfavored, tequilla being uniquely Mexican (Anything “hard” is wicked:::Hard alcohol, hard drugs, all porn.) or those who have a passion for drinking (Irish). Incidentally, another sign of gross disfavor are societies that consume spicy foods (Latin America, Thai, etc.), those who eat too much meat, engage in human sacrifice, ones who tattoo or pierce their bodies, those who celebrate evil (Celtic) or are inflicted with the Catholic Church. Contrary to what disfavored people believe, these peoples are not “earning” when they inflict their evil on others. Rather it is the source of their disfavor because the gods are scapegoatting them by hurting others with the problems the gods inflicted them with!!! Those who believe they are earning have become corrupted!!! Disfavored people want to minimize the god’s opportunities. These “open doors” give the gods the freedom to justify instructing Artificial Intelligence to create problems in the disfavored’s lives. The USA, Catholic Church, hip-hop, etc all give the gods the freedom to abuse you and your family. Identify and eliminate as many of these items as you can. The gods used “The Boot” twice, suggesting they are open to the idea of recycling:::Beem the structures and people off earth (into a star), beem out toxic waste and re-colonize the planet??? “Source planets” require a investment and they may prefer to maximize its return.

The gods will use whatever role players are at their disposal to justify their behavior to segments of society, 20th century gangsters used to position against the most disfavored among us::::They utilize levels of positioning. This is just another tactic the god’s use to instill hurdles along the disfavored’s path. There is an underlying positioning beneath this, as is the god’s way:::Levels of positioning used to confuse the disfavored, to add a hurdle, and I suspect 20th century WorldWars are a clue suggesting german control, as is Hitler a clue suggesting Austrian leadership. Not only is their dominance of evil warmongering in the 20th century a clue but so is their language, a gutteral, wicked sounding langauge which is a clue offered to the disfavored. Similarly the purpose of their composers, clones because the favored children got out, was as a “high-level” distraction for those in that segment of society. But I suspect the counsel/Management Team’s use of positioning doesn’t stop there. I suspect it may continue to “Earthly gods”, perhaps with Egyptian Pharrohs, perhaps some Asian kings as leadership? Unlike “made guys” or VIPs, these individuals’ reals may actually have a position within the Management Team for their status is very high. Their clone’s role could suggest their real’s importance:::::Of course their duties may not be Earthly due to bias.

If you ever have doubt I would refer you to the Old World way of life:::the elders used to sit and impart wisdom to the young. Now we watch DVDs and use the internet. People would be matched and married by age 14. They village would use a matchmaker or elders (all clones!!) to pair young people. Now girls give their precious virginity away to some person in school and parents divorce while their children grow up without an important role model. The people used to honor the gods and were rewarded with a high-quality of life for them, their children and their society. Now we have a deteriorating society on a collision course with the Apocalypse.

There are many examples throughout 20th century life of how they instilled distractions into society so people wouldn’t find the path and ascend, a way to justify excluding those whose family history makes them undesirable:::materialism, radio, sports, movies, popular music, television, video games, shopping. As we approached the end of the 20th century they accelerated their efforts:::the internet, the incredible increase in the stock market, etc, all deliberate attempts to ensure the disfavored are distracted/incurr evil (greed, justification for leaving the undesirable behind) and fail to make it up before this crucial date of 2000. Today’s high pay is a strategy::::It creates contentment/ability to distract self so people don’t seek more, hesitant to receive contradicting possibilities, dependant on what they are told telepathically, subject to deception in a captive environment::the disfavored feel as if they are “in”. It also opens the door for a materialistically-based lifestyle. They gods (Counsel/Management Team/ruling species) have deteriorated life on earth precipitously in the last 40 years, from a godless society to abortion to pornography, widespread drug use and widespread casual (gay) sex, bi-racial children, single-parent households, latchkey kids and the masculinization of women (and hence (full) women’s prisons, participatory sports, etc. (Up until the past four decades it was the men who filled the prisons, the men who made trouble, the men who caused problems, and it’s because theirs is the gender with disfavor. Too many men still sign on to the “good ‘ole boy’s club” paternalistic type of mentality, an archaic dumping ground now designated for the grossly disfavored, and it is used to compel them to feel superior to women when just the opposite is true.) Anything that emerged since the advent of television and “fast food” should be be distrusted by the disfavored and viewed as tools of the gods designed to attack us. Anything that emerged since the advent of television and “fast food” should be be distrusted by the disfavored and viewed as tools of the gods designed to attack us. Anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything Anything that emerged since the advent of television and “fast food” should be be distrusted by the disfavored and viewed as tools of the gods designed to attack us. Women are favored, are the element of decency, and as they become more like the men the society becomes more disfavored, goes downhill, as we are witnessing. There was a time, not so long ago, when no self-respecting woman would EVER set foot in a bar or a gambling hall. The only women who were in those type of establishments were of questionable morals, and there were far fewer of them than there are today. Tabloids offer details on celebrities lives. They are ALL clones. Every one of them, and all these incidents are staged::The gods tell these clone celebrities to commit their offense and offer these tabloids as temptation to the ignorant public. Tabloids are tagetted specifically to women, and the gods offer this information for a reason:::because it hurts them, they incurr evil:::::::they are enjoying the misery of others.

The earth’s elders, hundreds and thousands of years old, are disgusted and have become indifferent. The Biblical account of Noah’s flood was regional to the disfavored Mediterrean (water levels lowered because of the ice age, habitation ocurred at seaside, land bridge at the Straight of Gibraltar “broke through”. Of course the gods desire maximum effect during these events so expect that they beemed in trillions of gallons into the Mediterreanean basin to enhance this event, especially in the east. Look for similar “effect-maximizing” behavior during future catestrophic events.), peoples whom the gods scapegoatted when they pushed them into the evil that justified the flood, behavior similar to that which we are witnessing today. peoples whom the gods scapegoatted when they pushed them into the evil that justified the flood, behavior similar to that which we are witnessing today pushed them into evil - behavior similar to today - pushed them into evil - behavior similar to today - pushed them into evil - behavior similar to today - pushed them into evil - behavior similar to today - pushed them into evil - behavior similar to today - pushed them into evil - behavior similar to today - pushed them into evil - behavior similar to today - pushed them into evil - behavior similar to today - pushed them into evil - behavior similar to today - pushed them into evil - behavior similar to today - peoples whom the gods scapegoatted when they pushed them into the evil that justified the flood, behavior similar to that which we are witnessing today::::::::::

The gods drew the disfavored out to California with the gold rush, peaking them euphorically to achieve it:::Gold fever. This is the same tactic they use to create addiction or make people gay. In time they created the current disturbed enviornment to prey on those disfavored’s descendants:::California led the social deterioration of the last 40 years as the gods escallated towards The End::: -Free sex, Summer of Love -Drug use -Music scene -Black Panthers -Hollywood. Movies were terrible until they mysteriously changed in 196x sometime. -Silicon Valley -???? They implimented the deterioration of society over a century before it began in earnest. Recall how California was the source of “progressive” ideas, gay acceptance/marriage, bi-racial acceptance, open immigration (see above), godlessness, individuality, and how these ideas were used to infect the rest of the country, the rest of the world. Californians will be scapegoatted for The End, their “progressive” ideals used to perpetuate a “leveling of the playing field” worldwide. And don’t be suprised if California (is the first to) subducts::: the North American plate sliding under the Pacific plate.

Because they have leveled the playing field for all people (purebloods and mongrels) in the decades prior to the 21st century is a clue they will end globally this time (westernization, materialism, immigration/interracial, homosexual, voyerism, pornography, access to disturbing media, desensitization, etc). The clues all suggest a very telling conclusion::this is Earth’s end stage, and there are signs tectonic plate subduction would be the method of disposal:::Earth’s axis will shift breaking continental plates free and initiating mass subduction. Much as Italy’s boot and the United States shaped like a workhorse (with a fat ass) are clues, so is the planet Uranus a clue, its axis rotated on its side. Edgar Cayce was a tool of the gods in the 20th century, picking winners for and costing the disfavored Italian gangsters priveledge in heaven when he prophecized subduction being the method of disposal. Global warming should alarm people for it is a clue telling of the bleak future of Planet Earth. The Bible says fire will be our demise this time. Both subduction and “beemed to the center of a star” fit this description:::::Don’t think it will take as long as global warming suggests. The gods used “The Boot” (Italy) twice, suggesting the gods are open to the idea of recycling::: Beem the structures and people off earth (into a star), beem out toxic waste and re-colonize the planet??? “Source planets” require a investment and they may prefer to maximize its return. Could they have already recycled earth before?

There are many different levels and peasants will not get past Level 2 (aka Planet Temptation, aka Planet Corporate, aka Planet Clone, aka Purgatory, Earth=Level 1) if they are evil (they share some go up, are offered free cocaine and orgies with incredibly beautiful clones (a sign they don’t want you to stay) and stay less then one year. They share many others would have had longer lives had they stayed on Earth.). Also the time you receive will be drastically reduced:::your life’s course of unrespectability will have costed you a chance at immortality. If the day comes when you understand this all is true it is a good sign::: It means they want to keep you, you are being granted a chance to change your life. Those they don’t want to retain will be placed into an environment in which they feel comfortable to ensure the minimal chance possible. Edgar Cayce’s prognostications effectively served as “the rope”, temptation for the disfavored Italians. Money is not an issue on the level above Level 2, Purgatory, and “something for nothing” behavior like this will exclude you, as will behavior such as permanance in/abuse of the welfare system, using (unreasonable) coupons, buying on sale exclusively, supermarkets as ATMs, gambling for gain instead of fun, overeating at buffets, etc:::When people who have been granted good things in life from the gods turn around and CHEAT them they risk their entrance into heaven.

It is important that you begin praying now. Evil is a slippery slope::once you start punishment begins to escallate. If you defy early there may be no retribution but as you continue to committ evil there will be until the point where you can no longer stand it (If you experience retribution it is punishment for the evil you’ve comitted, necessary since you’re interesting in pursuing god’s favor::::You have to be punished for what you’ve done wrong.). Pray for guidance and never obey when they tell you to be evil, for saving yourself will become more and more difficult with each act of evil you committ until ultimatly the day arrives when they make their decision about you final. It’s important that people fix their problems and ascend with the body given to them, for they say if your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock. It is important people ascend with their body or else their time is limited. It is important people ascend with their body or else their time is limited. It is important people ascend with their body or else their time is limited. It is important people ascend with their body or else their time is limited. It is important people ascend with their body or else their time is limited. It is important people ascend with their body or else their time is limited. It is important people ascend with their body or else their time is limited. It is important people ascend with their body or else their time is limited. It is important people ascend with their body or else their time is limited. It is important people ascend with their body or else their time is limited. It is important people ascend with their body or else their time is limited.

People need to repent for the things they’ve done wrong in life. Often they know what they have done was wrong (telling you telepthically to do these things was temptation and complying has hurt you/will limit your time). People need to attone for these things they’ve done wrong. There are other things that people have grown to believe are acceptable when in fact they are not:::::This society is designed to corrupt individuals, be it through materialism, the celebration/acceptance of evil (Halloween), desensitization of topics/images, voyerism/celebration of people’s misery, the acceptance of casual/alternate sex, the dietization of a prophet (Jesus). People need to realize that the gods made this behavior socially acceptable to corrupt people society-wide and limit the time everybody receives, an important managerial strategy as we approach The End:::the leveling of the playing field, behavior similar to that which the gods inflicted on the disfavored prior to the Noah’s Flood event. You need to recognize this, see that this behavior is wrong and stop doing it. (Set a goal of empathy and compassion for all, for we are all disfavored::::Other people’s disfavor is manifested in their particular way, just as your disfavfor is manifested in your particular way.) This whole system is about us, the little people, the peasants. The wealthy, the corporations, all those people are clones and are here to disceive us and mislead us. They are merely putting in their time. “Money is the root of all evil.” is not just a cliche. They use the wealthy to corrupt the typical peasant, using these clones to create a goal of greed within the little people. How they use the media to corrupt young blacks is an outstanding example. This whole system is about us, the disfavored left behind. And it is like this to keep us down.

Somewhere in your family history one of your forefathers created an offense that cast your family into this pattern of disfavor, which perhaps is manifested in the evil you committ (promiscuity, gosip mongering, family betrayal, theft, lack of consideration for others, insensitivity, etc). I suspect to fulfill their desire for justification many family offenses ocurred in the mid 20th century. Of course an early offense ocurred which the gods used to justify shipping your bloodline to the United States, so there might be a string of offenses in your history. Do your ancestral research::You should be knowledgeable about your family history. Clues in the history may arise that could assist you. (Keep an open mind to every possibility for they suggest matriarchal lineage is the norm::::: They said civilized life on Earth has been going on for 100,000 years. Matrilineal decent was likley reserved for the favored, so don’t exepct to see it ocurr in areas like the Mediterreanean, where the Noah’s Flood event proves their disfavor. The Mediterreanean is a very important region for they say “western civilization” sprung forth from it. I’d argue that we inheritied institutions inflicted upon the disfavored because of this region, institutions like patrilineal decent, once Christianity homoginized Europe. An early “leveling of the playing field” event.

They say this final test costed up to 50% of the candidates in the past and I suspect it was EXTREMELY effective on the children. I want people to be forewarned, knowledgeable about the god’s strategy, their plan for paving the way for the “end of time” on Earth that we witness/experience, and I want you to be in a state of forgiveness PRIOR to the date of your “test”, for this is yet another tactic designed to limit the time the disfavored receive. The gods place great importance in positioning, not just to conceal their involvement, ensuring people are deceived, receptive to temptation and aren’t motivated to pray, but also to preserve the “final test”’s productivity, for I suspect it is very effective. The gods wrote prophecy and scripted their strategy (positioning) for a reason:::they intend to enforce both.

This message illustrating the path may be the disfavored’s last clue. All clues before have been more covert but this one is quite obvious indeed, which says time is running out.

I understand they are updating people on my situation and I thought it best to clarify::: I have NOTHING to be thankful for. Perhaps that is why they created my situation the way it is, CHEATED me out of my life, left me with an abjectly devoid existance:::so I am willing to fuck god. This makes me a very unique individual, for people would NEVER dare do what I am; most wish to belong, which is a desire the gods use against the disfavored, compelling them to incurr evil, limiting the time they get if they go. However a benefit of this situation ocurrs when people realize they have much to be thankful for when they compare their lives to mine. They CHEATED me out of my youth to achieve this distraction on the scale of England’s during the 80s and 90s. Unlike theirs mine may have been primarily telepathic. Fire is sybolic, a common theme:::instructed my father to purchase a truck that was a fire hazard::: gas tank outside the frame, inside the cabin. There was a staged fire at the house I was raised in during my youth. Also the gods instructed the stage be set for me to be victimized by another fire-related incident. All are cycles the gods instructed be created which was designed as hurdles for a mythical beenfit, likley telepathic, totally unpositionable. The gods instructed their “made guy” clones to create distraction items within television, music and movies, corporate mergers and aquisistions and product/pricing developments as far back as the 1970s to contribute to the desired effect, using me as their scapegoat by creating these items around aspects in my life, unknowingly using me to promote evil in the name of their covert positioned leaders of the 20th century, germany. All th

Glen, you never told us you had a brother!

A major concern I have in the creationists line of thought. Man did not evolve from monkeys or chimps man evolved with monkeys and chimps. We share enough physical traits with other primates that its clear we are also primates. This is of course trumped by the limited situations Dr. Haldane was concerned with.

Glen, you never told us you had a brother!

You’re going to have to learn to read properly, Steve. I know you don’t understand philosophy, but you ought to be able at least to differentiate between mindless twaddle and philosophy-tinged treatments that you disparage because you don’t understand them.

In other words, quit being such an anti-intellectual.

Glen D http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm

Reed Wrote:

Check out the book “Mathematical Population Genetics” by Warren J. Ewens. He has a section on Haldane’s Dilemma in which he demonstrates that the dilemma is an artifact of incorrectly applying results for an infinite population to finite populations.

Could you provide further details on this?

How fast: Your ravings are considerably less coherent than a “God Soap” label. Less intellectually satisfying too.

H.F.C.E.W.:

Yeah, I used to be paranoid too, until I realized I just wasn’t important enough for the world to conspire against me.

If there are any gods they probably don’t even know we exist.

Blaming your personal tragedies on some malevolent plan is a bit arrogant.

Ah, but if only 10% of population A has a certain evolutionary ‘adaptation’ (which if i am not mistaken is the whole point of evolution), and the remaining 90 % of the population dies out, (probably because they do not have the adaption to survive environmental changes, new predators etc.) this would remove any notion of ‘speed limits’ as only a few remaining specimens would be needed to continue the species.

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