Egg on your face…

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Our confused Christian friend William Wallace has his own blog site where he posted an article about “Where is the ACLU now?”

William Wallace Wrote:

After the government funded Tarek ibn Ziyad Academy (TIZA) in Minnesota stonewalled conservative journalist Katherine Kersten, a substitute teacher by the name of Amanda Getz spilled the beans about the Islamic school.

Afterward, Getz said, “teachers led the kids into the gym, where a man dressed in white with a white cap, who had been at the school all day,” was preparing to lead prayer. Beside him, another man “was prostrating himself in prayer on a carpet as the students entered.” “The prayer I saw was not voluntary,” Getz said. “The kids were corralled by adults and required to go to the assembly where prayer occurred.”(Kersten 4-9-2008)

Where is the ACLU? The ACLU was all over the Dover PA school district for merely suggesting that life might have been designed by some unidentified creator as a violation of the so-called separation of of church and state. But here in Minnesota, it is “halal” (kosher) to fund Islamic schools.

If William Wallace had done his homework and done some original research (something I have been encouraging him to do so) he would have known that the ACLU had indeed sent a letter objecting to exactly these practices. What was so funny or sad is that the letter was a month old…

Once again we see how foolish comments can turn into something much bigger.

What was William Wallace’s ‘response’?

William Wallace Wrote:

The letter you cite is very interesting, in that is very friendly. It is as though the ACLU wants to teach the school how to continue to be a public Islamic school. I’ll analyze the letter in more detail later; might make for an interesting blog.

Or his later ‘defense’ that the letter was far more friendly than a letter send in a case of defending the ““right” of students to disrupt learning with gratuitious (sic) use of the word “vagina”.”

Fascinating ‘logic’

But things get worse much worse… In an effort to wipe the egg off his face, William Wallace makes the following claim

William Wallace Wrote:

As Katherine Kersten points out, the liberal ACLU is begrudgingly investigating TIZA.(Kersten 4-9-2008)

Begrudgingly?…

From the actual article

In addition, schools cannot favor one religion by offering services for only its adherents, or promote after-school religious instruction for only one group. The ACLU of Minnesota [1] has launched an investigation of TIZA, and the Minnesota Department of Education has also begun a review.

Referring to TIZA’s executive director, Asad Zaman, who is a Muslim imam, or religious leader as ‘soapy Asad’, William Wallace insists on adding more egg…

William Wallace Wrote:

Soapy Asad basically admits that he has been advised and counsiled (sic) by the Minnesota ACLU with this:

That particular statement was placed with the intent to ensure that no TIZA staff members were involved in organizing the Friday prayers. Once the ACLU brought to our attention that this may have represented an appearance of impropriety, we immediately removed it although we have not been informed that there has been any legal violation of the law and we believe that we are not in any legal violation of the law — Asad Zaman(Kersten 4-8-2008)

And then finally, lacking much of any evidence and contradicted by the facts William Wallace insists that

William Wallace Wrote:

So yes, “Bad”, it does appear that the ACLU has been coaching TIZA to ensure that they can game the system.(Bad 4-10-2008)

to which “Bad” responded in the comments

Bad Wrote:

By “appear” you seem to mean “I made it up in my head” because you still haven’t supplied any evidence of this accusation. The ACLU telling them what they can’t do is not “coaching” them to “game the system.”

It’s still quite amazing that after making such a colossally silly accusation, instead of retracting it and maybe thinking why you got it so wrong, you’re still straining to find some way to redeem your paranoia.

William Wallace recently updated his inaugural posting to read

William Wallace Wrote:

While I pray that I do not mislead any others through my comments or through intemperate behavior, this is not an evangelical blog, and I am not going to hold back.

It seems to me that his prayers have yet to be answered.

[1] ACLU of Minnesota Press Release

After receiving complaints that Tarek ibn Ziyad Academy in Inver Grove Heights is violating the Establishment Clause the ACLU-MN sent a letter to the academy questioning their practices. In the letter that was sent the ACLU-MN questions some of their practices, including addressing allegations that the school sponsors prayer.

Teresa Nelson, an attorney for the ACLU of Minnesota, says “We currently do not have enough facts to state whether or not the school is in violation of the establishment clause. The American Civil Liberties Union is a strong defender of separation of church and state and will take action if we find they are violating the establishment clause.”

PS: Various other religious conservative blogs have picked up the story and are also repeating the nonsense about the ACLU. Seems ignorance spreads quickly and is quite contagious.

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If it weren’t for Katherine Kersten, the token conservative columnist at the otherwise communist progressive Star Tribune, would the ACLU be investigating the Tarek ibn Ziyad Academy (TIZA)? The new logo for Minnesota’s StarTribune comb... Read More

49 Comments

PZ Myers blogged on this and wondered

What will the wingnuts say, I wonder?

More egg on William Wallace’s face

William Wallace Wrote:

[1]Remember Richard Sternberg? The NCSE consulted with the Smithsonian on how to best make Sternberg’s life a living hell for daring to challenge Darwinian orthodoxy.

Even though I pointed out to him that the emails are available, he seems to be unaware of the emails from the NCSE sent to the Smithsonian advising them exactly of the opposite.

I guess the big question is whether he is a good enough scientist to remain there. If his non-creationist work is good, then I think he deserves the job. If not, and if outers are let go under the same circumstances, then let the chops fall where they may. But none of us are after this guy’s job. That isn’t the point of this exercise, in my opinion

Of the many things I have learned at PT, one is that WW has no connection to reality. His view of the world appears to have been entirely invented, whether in his own head or by the DI I cannot tell.

PvM Wrote:

Seems ignorance spreads quickly and is quite contagious.

Demonstrating the truth of the old saying that a lie can travel around the world before the truth has got its boots on.

It is quite characteristic of William Wallace to confuse facts with his wishes for the truth. For example, in this thread

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/200[…]volut-1.html

he calls me “lazy” because he wished that I hadn’t read the link he had put into his comment. In fact I had read the link, which is how I knew it was irrelevant.

William needs to learn that

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

John Adams, ‘Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials,’ December 1770

According to Ohio’s Academic Content Standards in English Language Arts, subsection “Reading Applications: Informational, Technical and Persuasive Text Standard”, students in third grade should know “the difference between facts and opinions”.

By this criterion, William’s thinking is not yet up to third-grade level.

What will the wingnuts say, I wonder?

They go immediately into denial mode of course!

Wherever William Wallace writes down his opinions, there is a good probability that there is a logical error, an error of fact, or a confusion of opinion with fact. At least this is what I found while perusing his blog and correcting the many errors I found there.

what a waste of time.

he’s just nuts, Pim.

Every village has its idiot. Thanks to teh internets, they can organize and issue statements!

WW is just a particularly unusual example of a religious nut. He’s a textbook example of a useless, bothersome asshole.

Before the Internet I never dreamed there were so many wingnuts in the world.

Now at least, when they demonstrate even a little hubris, the slightest of reticence and second-grade literacy, their rantings are streaming through cyberspace and we now have the slight comfort of at least knowing who they are.

“Know your enemy” - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

So, wait, I’m having problems parsing this…

William Wallace is mad that the Muslim students in a private Muslim school were being made to pray on Friday (the Muslim day of prayer) in the school gymnasium, and is even madder that the ACLU is dragging its feet about prosecuting them about this?

(Logic) Check, please?

According to the OP, stanton, TIZA is government-funded, and therefore subject to the church-state separation provisions in the first amendment.

Dan: According to Ohio’s Academic Content Standards in English Language Arts, subsection “Reading Applications: Informational, Technical and Persuasive Text Standard”, students in third grade should know “the difference between facts and opinions”.

By this criterion, William’s thinking is not yet up to third-grade level.

Nice comparison, Dan. WW’s comprehension is not up to 3rd-grade standard in Ohio.

I wonder how he measures up to the standards for, say, Florida or Texas…?

You have to understand that Wallace, et. al, are very fragile people. Their eggos (sic) are dependent upon the bible (koran, torah, etc.) and the framework established therein. The rumor mill is very potent to them, and like good creationists they ignore any evidence to the contrary. That is why they can’t do any research as it would upset their cart, and even if they did it would be irrelevant (as illustrated by their creationist conclusions drawn in their so-called “peer reviewed” papers). But unfortunately like the Terminator, they will never, never go away until evolution is killed off, no matter what the cost.

Like I said, this sort of thing can only end in intellectual tragedy.

PS: Various other religious conservative blogs have picked up the story and are also repeating the nonsense about the ACLU. Seems ignorance spreads quickly and is quite contagious.

This is one of the things that just annoys me to no end about the ID-creationist movement. They take the word of nutjobs like WW as Gospel, and without any hint of critical thought or even attempts to verify the information they pass it along.

And when it is pointed out the info is wrong, many just continue to repeat the lie.

It’s like gossip, just worse and on a larger scale. How trashy.

I may have missed it, but I don’t think even a single commenter on Michelle Malkin’s blog has mentioned the ACLU’s involvement, even though it occurred a month prior to Malkin catching wind of the controversy and posting “Where are the separation-of-church-and-state activists now?” I guess that’s the kind of echo-chamber you get when you wall yourself up in tight ball of closed commenting and near zero debate.

As I noted in my original blog post, the ACLU could have just as easily entitled THEIR letter “Where is Michelle Malkin, that self-styled policewoman for Islamic misbehavior, hunh???!” since they were way early to the controversy compared to her.

By Wallace’s logic, I guess this means that Malkin is secretly colluding with the Islamists, and is only “grudgingly” confronting the issue now that she’s been caught out as behind the curve on it.

Yay! More proof that “William Wallace” (is that even his real name?) is a pathological liar! Sooner or later he will step on the wrong toes and get his @$$ sued off for libel. I can hardly wait!

Creationists never case to amaze me with their utter contempt for honesty and factual accuracy.

The religion of evolutionism is an all-encompassing vortex consuming everything in its path; it is Daniel’s fourth beast that devouring all of the others. The Darwiniacs can not bear to have either Jesus or Allah honored in their presence. Evolutionists such as Stalin and Mao slaughtered Christians and Muslims alike in the name of Darwin. I’m sure PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins dream of doing the same thing while vacationing together in San Francisco. Evolutionists always resort to mass slaughter becuase they believe that by wiping out those of faith no one will be able to bear witness to their debauchery!

Evolutionists always resort to mass slaughter becuase they believe that by wiping out those of faith no one will be able to bear witness to their debauchery!

I have to admit, the world would certainly be more fun without voyeuristic, judgmental (stress on the mental) morons like yourself about.

Wow, Charlemagne, It is always impressive that one can lie so many times in one paragraph. Let us know when you are done spreading hate as we might actually find that interesting. I won’t hold my breath.

Seems pretty obvious to me that the anti-ACLU sentiment seen broadly across Christian sites is the result of the typical fundamentalist dichotomy, that you’re either for us or you are out to get us, and that there is no neutral. Anything less than full-buckwheat bible-banging Jeezus-waving cheerleading is ipso facto “persecution”. It’s anti-god.

So the logic is straightforward. The ACLU defends the First Amendment rights of ALL citizens. Sometimes they are Christians, but sometimes they are not. Since neutrality is not possible, this necessarily means that the ACLU is out to get the Christians. So how about those cases where the ACLU defends the rights of Christians or opposes the abuses of non-Christians? Well, the answer is easy: the ACLU is clearly NOT a full-buckewheat bible-banging Jeezus-waving cheerleading organization. Therefore they are evil, and out to get us!

I’m reminded of a Chinese political case where an author was defending himself in Chinese court on the grounds that the Chinese Constitution guarantees freedom of expression (which it explicitly does). The Court ruled that this only guarantees the Chinese citizen the right to praise the Party in the words of his own choosing, but NOT to oppose it.

Fundies seem to read the US First Amendment the way the Chinese Court works - that it guarantees Christians the right to worship Jeezus however they choose to do so. It most certainly does NOT guarantee anything whatsoever to god-hating anti-Christians (i.e. anyone NOT a full-buckwheat…etc.)

Charlemagne lying:

The religion of evolutionism is an all-encompassing vortex consuming everything in its path; it is Daniel’s fourth beast that devouring all of the others. The Darwiniacs can not bear to have either Jesus or Allah honored in their presence. Evolutionists such as Stalin and Mao slaughtered Christians and Muslims alike in the name of Darwin. I’m sure PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins dream of doing the same thing while vacationing together in San Francisco. Evolutionists always resort to mass slaughter becuase they believe that by wiping out those of faith no one will be able to bear witness to their debauchery!

William Wallace wannabe, shut up!

Oh man, another one off his meds…

Charlemagne:

The religion of evolutionism is an all-encompassing vortex consuming everything in its path; it is Daniel’s fourth beast that devouring all of the others. The Darwiniacs can not bear to have either Jesus or Allah honored in their presence. Evolutionists such as Stalin and Mao slaughtered Christians and Muslims alike in the name of Darwin. I’m sure PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins dream of doing the same thing while vacationing together in San Francisco. Evolutionists always resort to mass slaughter becuase they believe that by wiping out those of faith no one will be able to bear witness to their debauchery!

My main issue is that while Wallace’s comments are foolish by his own choice of not doing sufficient research, his comments make Christianity look foolish as well.

Ichthyic:

what a waste of time.

he’s just nuts, Pim.

But you have to realize, Cowardheart doesn’t give a flying fuck if he makes Christianity look foolish. For him, much like Ass Prod Mathis (as mentioned in “Why Ken Miller Isn’t In Expelled”), Cowardheart sees Christianity as a tiny, dying cult, of which he is the sole remaining member. This is a common attitude among creationists.

Your “confused christian friend” doesn’t see you as a Christian. He doesn’t even see you as a human being. He is not your friend. And his twisted version of christianity is so far from yours that there’s simply no way the word can describe both and mean anything at all. Cowardheart is a disgrace to everything he touches.

I’d recommend you limit your exposure to debunking his nonsense and making it clear he doesn’t speak for you, or any other person with a brain. Trying to get him to admit he’s wrong, no matter how much evidence you present, is a fool’s errand. The best you can hope for is to show the rest of the world that his batshit insanity is his alone, and not the true nature of your faith.

PvM:

My main issue is that while Wallace’s comments are foolish by his own choice of not doing sufficient research, his comments make Christianity look foolish as well.

Ichthyic:

what a waste of time.

he’s just nuts, Pim.

But you have to realize, Cowardheart doesn’t give a flying fuck if he makes Christianity look foolish. Much like Ass Prod Mathis (as mentioned in “Why Ken Miller Isn’t In Expelled”), Cowardheart sees Christianity as a tiny, dying cult, of which he is the sole remaining member. This is a common attitude among creationists.

Your “confused christian friend” doesn’t see you as a Christian. He doesn’t even see you as a human being. He is not your friend. And his twisted version of christianity is so far from yours that there’s simply no way the word can describe both and mean anything at all. Cowardheart is a disgrace to everything he touches.

I’d recommend you limit your exposure to debunking his nonsense and making it clear he doesn’t speak for you, or any other person with a brain. Trying to get him to admit he’s wrong, no matter how much evidence you present, is a fool’s errand. The best you can hope for is to show the rest of the world that his batshit insanity is his alone, and not the true nature of your faith. Given the vast supply of willfully ignorant and hateful creationists, you’ve got your work cut out for you on that alone.

PvM:

My main issue is that while Wallace’s comments are foolish by his own choice of not doing sufficient research, his comments make Christianity look foolish as well.

Ichthyic:

what a waste of time.

he’s just nuts, Pim.

Oops on the double post. Seems to be a bit of a delay in the system somewhere.

Charlemagne is nothing like WW. WW sticks around and revels in responding to his critics. Charlemagne is a “bungee troll” who drops into a thread, creates havoc, and disappears never to be seen again until the next thread he decides to grace. I don’t think I’ve ever seen two “Charlemagne” posts in one thread, except when they were two different rants; no answers to any challenges or even references to the previous rant.

Not sure which is worse. WW pollutes more, but at least has the integrity to acknowledge others.

Just to clear up any confusion about the school’s public vs. private status. It is a public CHARTER school. Which means that in quick terms it is a free lance public school in Minnesota. It is not tied to a geographic district. There are a number of rules that govenr them, but the idea is that they have more freedom to operate bureacratically than a traditional public school. They get the same money per pupil as other schools in the state, but for example they cannot ask for a referendum to raise property taxes to increase funding. Anyone is free to apply and there are no admissions requirements. Generally they are set up and sponsored with the idea that the school will have more of a focused educational approach than a one size fits all school district. There are foreign language immersion schools, classical schools, on-line schools, biological sciences schools… Bottom line for this discussion they can specialize and more closely meet the unique needs of Muslim students, but they must also abide by any standing court decisions as well.

Bill Gascoyne:

Charlemagne is nothing like WW. WW sticks around and revels in responding to his critics. Charlemagne is a “bungee troll” who drops into a thread, creates havoc, and disappears never to be seen again until the next thread he decides to grace. I don’t think I’ve ever seen two “Charlemagne” posts in one thread, except when they were two different rants; no answers to any challenges or even references to the previous rant.

Not sure which is worse. WW pollutes more, but at least has the integrity to acknowledge others.

I have to say that Big Chuck’s posts are much more entertaining. Sir Billy is tedeous and based on the idea tht he actually has an argument that needs ta serious response. Big Chuck is just delightfully goofy.

Sorry about the spelling, I’m five of the ten worst spellers I know.

dpr

Ichthyic:

Evolutionists always resort to mass slaughter becuase they believe that by wiping out those of faith no one will be able to bear witness to their debauchery!

I have to admit, the world would certainly be more fun without voyeuristic, judgmental (stress on the mental) morons like yourself about.

Is this a tacit admission you support the actions of Stalin and Mao like Daniel Dennett?

Was that a tacit admission that you’re a liar and a moron?

Isn’t your imaginary god supposed to have some sort of problem with bearing false witness?

Charlemagne:

Ichthyic:

Evolutionists always resort to mass slaughter becuase they believe that by wiping out those of faith no one will be able to bear witness to their debauchery!

I have to admit, the world would certainly be more fun without voyeuristic, judgmental (stress on the mental) morons like yourself about.

Is this a tacit admission you support the actions of Stalin and Mao like Daniel Dennett?

Bill Gascoyne:

Charlemagne is nothing like WW. WW sticks around and revels in responding to his critics. Charlemagne is a “bungee troll” who drops into a thread, creates havoc, and disappears never to be seen again until the next thread he decides to grace. I don’t think I’ve ever seen two “Charlemagne” posts in one thread, except when they were two different rants; no answers to any challenges or even references to the previous rant.

Not sure which is worse. WW pollutes more, but at least has the integrity to acknowledge others.

Remember the topic of this thread. It concerned Christians speaking too soon about the inaction of the ACLU. Now, who else on this thread has just done something similar?

phantomreader42:

Was that a tacit admission that you’re a liar and a moron?

Isn’t your imaginary god supposed to have some sort of problem with bearing false witness?

Charlemagne:

Ichthyic:

Evolutionists always resort to mass slaughter becuase they believe that by wiping out those of faith no one will be able to bear witness to their debauchery!

I have to admit, the world would certainly be more fun without voyeuristic, judgmental (stress on the mental) morons like yourself about.

Is this a tacit admission you support the actions of Stalin and Mao like Daniel Dennett?

Well, fishy’s statement sure seems like a clarion call for slaughter of Christians if you ask me, or perhaps he just favors the Daniel Dennett plan to lock Christians in cages.

Charlemagne:

Bill Gascoyne:

Charlemagne is nothing like WW. WW sticks around and revels in responding to his critics. Charlemagne is a “bungee troll” who drops into a thread, creates havoc, and disappears never to be seen again until the next thread he decides to grace. I don’t think I’ve ever seen two “Charlemagne” posts in one thread, except when they were two different rants; no answers to any challenges or even references to the previous rant.

Not sure which is worse. WW pollutes more, but at least has the integrity to acknowledge others.

Remember the topic of this thread. It concerned Christians speaking too soon about the inaction of the ACLU. Now, who else on this thread has just done something similar?

There’s always a first time.

Also, please note the difference between “what he does” and “what I’ve seen him do.” You’re not so important to me that I pay that much attention to you.

Charlemagne Wrote:

Well, fishy’s statement sure seems like a clarion call for slaughter of Christians if you ask me, or perhaps he just favors the Daniel Dennett plan to lock Christians in cages.

More foolish statements. Why do some Christians insist on not only making themselves look foolish but also drag down Christianity with it?

Remember the topic of this thread. It concerned Christians speaking too soon about the inaction of the ACLU. Now, who else on this thread has just done something similar?

Now this is ironic

PvM:

More foolish statements. Why do some Christians insist on not only making themselves look foolish but also drag down Christianity with it?

Because they can get away with it. Perhaps in the back of their minds, they think Jesus and his Apostles were liars and/or idiots as well.

For such people, I’d have this advice:

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney to represent you. If you cannot afford an attorney, one can be appointed for you by the court.

As far as I know, fraud, slander, and libel are illegal acts, and them being done in the name of religion should be no exception.

I have one response to Large Charlie:

Liar!

Wow! An entire thread dedicated to William and he is nowhere around! What’s up with that?

Our friend William Wallace foolishly refers to PT as the PT-Mafia

[ww responds: PvM is a member of the PT-mafia. My posts at the PT-mafia have been routinely blocked lately. Should we boot the creep?]

Funny how William Wallace has problems with correctly presenting the facts, uses ad hominems. If he were to spend even 1% of these efforts to look foolish on verifying his stories, he could improve their accuracy immensely.

Stacy S.:

Wow! An entire thread dedicated to William and he is nowhere around! What’s up with that?

It is kind of strange - you’d think he’d be used to being demonstrably wrong by now.

it surely although it is a common kind of boredom found amongst ID creationists, well worth exposing.

briana lewis said:

this is boring

Muslim youths are angry, frustrated and extremist because they have been mis-educated and de-educated by the British schooling. Muslim children are confused because they are being educated in a wrong place at a wrong time in state schools with non-Muslim monolingual teachers. They face lots of problems of growing up in two distinctive cultural traditions and value systems, which may come into conflict over issues such as the role of women in the society, and adherence to religious and cultural traditions. The conflicting demands made by home and schools on behaviour, loyalties and obligations can be a source of psychological conflict and tension in Muslim youngsters. There are also the issues of racial prejudice and discrimination to deal with, in education and employment. They have been victim of racism and bullying in all walks of life. According to DCSF, 56% of Pakistanis and 54% of Bangladeshi children has been victims of bullies. The first wave of Muslim migrants were happy to send their children to state schools, thinking their children would get a much better education. Than little by little, the overt and covert discrimination in the system turned them off. There are fifteen areas where Muslim parents find themselves offended by state schools.

The right to education in one’s own comfort zone is a fundamental and inalienable human right that should be available to all people irrespective of their ethnicity or religious background. Schools do not belong to state, they belong to parents. It is the parents’ choice to have faith schools for their children. Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. There is no place for a non-Muslim teacher or a child in a Muslim school. There are hundreds of state schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be designated as Muslim community schools. An ICM Poll of British Muslims showed that nearly half wanted their children to attend Muslim schools. There are only 143 Muslim schools. A state funded Muslim school in Birmingham has 220 pupils and more than 1000 applicants chasing just 60.

Majority of anti-Muslim stories are not about terrorism but about Muslim culture–the hijab, Muslim schools, family life and religiosity. Muslims in the west ought to be recognised as a western community, not as an alien culture. Iftikhar Ahmad www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

Boo frickin’ hoo. If I moved from Canada to Germany, I’d learn to speak German and learn to keep my door geschlossen. Grow up.

About this Entry

This page contains a single entry by PvM published on April 11, 2008 3:25 AM.

Chris Heard: Why Ken Miller isn’t in Expelled was the previous entry in this blog.

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