Wesley Elsberry: “Expelled” exposed

| 34 Comments

expelled movie exposedWesley Elsberry has an interesting posting on the topic “Expelled” and the copyright issue.

Wesley Elsberry Wrote:

“Expelled” is a production linked into the persecution stories at the heart of IDC. They have had months of discussions and correspondence with the principal figures of the IDC movement. They likely have recordings of discussions in meetings and other places where all these folks felt free to chat.

There is a serious line of inquiry as to whether there was collusion to infringe on the copyright of XVIVO.

The discovery part of any lawsuit is a powerful tool to establish the facts

Lawsuits come with the subpeona power of the courts for discovery. Depositions of witnesses are taken under oath. Cross-examination of witnesses is not restricted to a delimited field of questions; anything that could bear upon the credibility or trustworthiness of witnesses in court is fair game for inquiry. The court can compel answering awkward questions with contempt citations if needed.

And of course, when things get to court, exposing how every single ‘persecution’ story is either overblown, misleading or plain out false

If this goes to court, what witnesses can Premise Media put on the stand who *wouldn’t* potentially be tainted by the revelation that every single “persecution” story in it is overblown, misleading, or simply false in its particulars?

Premise Media, may be in the enviable position of having exposed the Achilles heel of the Intelligent Design Creationism movement

Premise Media could accomplish what outsiders never have hoped to do: bring about the complete public discrediting of the IDC movement in its most basic claims to personal integrity and suffering in the face of persecution. And it would be a completely self-inflicted wound. All Premise Media needs to do is blow off the XVIVO letter and continue with their opening schedule unaltered.

An interesting posting.

34 Comments

Wow, i certainly hope that Premise can bring down IDC. Oh my, the irony is just too ironic!

If something like this was pursued at a trail all it would do is cause the core supporters of the IDC movement to yell persecution even louder because they were drug in front of a court to explain themselves. I for one would love for the lies to be shown to the light of day but I’m not so sure it would accomplish much, especially what is implied it would accomplish in this post.

For the IDC movement to succeed, they have to get supporters outside the core, and if that core is exposed for the psychotic little group of sycophants it is, that’s going to be tough to pull off.

I suppose that it could “take down the IDM” in the sense that if the ID-crowd loses a potential lawsuit over copyright infringement, then they might have to pay some big money as punishment.

That might give some of the bigger financial backers to the Disco Institute, etc a little pause before they write out the next fat check.

Many people (even conservative Christians) don’t like giving large amounts of their money over to those they consider incompetent boobs.

It’s rather…interesting to follow the comments on this story over at UcD. One person couldn’t seem to understand why COPYing would violate a COPYright. Good night, what do they think a copyright is?

Then I came across this post:

“For those of you reading this thread who are sympathetic to the threatened legal action, you ought to be ashamed. You are fascists, plain and simple. You want to SHUT UP an idea that (switch on sarcastic, nasally tone here) you just don’t personally take a liking to. What arrogance. Incredible.”

It’s arrogant to want to protect your work from exploitation for anti-scientific purposes? Wow.

And by the way, people like this who love making comparisons to fascists, communists, and Nazis should really talk to some people who have really been through those times; what a ridiculous comparison.

Frustrating!

David quoted from UcD- “For those of you reading this thread who are sympathetic to the threatened legal action, you ought to be ashamed. You are fascists, plain and simple. You want to SHUT UP an idea that (switch on sarcastic, nasally tone here) you just don’t personally take a liking to. What arrogance. Incredible.”

And the rest of that train of logic goes like this- “Since our big idea is THE TRUTH, anything goes in pushing it. Lies. Theft. Copyright infringement. It’s all good, right? It’s for Jesus. And anyone who opposes said idea is an agent of satan. Or a Nazi.”

If there really were hundreds of scientists pursuing ID research, wouldn’t they be able to come up with their own video?

Although a trial is unlikely to win over many active IDers, where I could see it having an impact is with the attitude of the media. They already seem to be moving away from ‘give each side a 20-second spot’ and a trial that develops into a shambles (in the original sense of a butcher’s area) is likely to hasten the movement.

If you read the Project for A New American Century you see the same kind of non-ethical approach from the Neo-conservative movement (who brought us the war in Iraq). A Machiavellian use of lies, distortions, and anything goes to further their causes. They have a very arrogant attitude that they know what is best for the “common people” and can use any means available to drag or trick them into supporting their Wars R Us agenda. Interestingly enough they also subscribe to ID and are writing and about it at the Heritage Foundation.

A theocrat who cared about abiding by the laws of this nation wouldn’t be much of a theocrat.

A theocrat who cared about abiding by the dictates of his religion wouldn’t be much of a theocrat.

Seems William Wallace has decided to block me from posting on his blog. I understand since I have been exposing many fallacious arguments made by our confused Christian friend who prayed for guidance but seems to have lost his bearings.

William Wallace Wrote:

[WW: What do you think of Judge Jones blatantly plagiarizing the ACLU’s works?]

Seems William does not understand the legal system of filing findings of fact which the judge asked for from both parties.

That the ACLU’s filing was of high quality led the judge to reuse a portion.

No plagiarism… Just ignorance on the part of our Christian friend. Why does he seem to refuse to do his own research before looking foolish and making Christianity look foolish?

If there really were hundreds of scientists pursuing ID research, wouldn’t they be able to come up with their own video?

They’re too busy not doing research to have time to do video. ;)

Also, good videos would need a huge amount of CSI, and that takes longer.

Henry

[WW: What do you think of Judge Jones blatantly plagiarizing the ACLU’s works?]

Does he think de Judge didn’t have the ACLU’s permission to use that material?

Henry

Henry J:

[WW: What do you think of Judge Jones blatantly plagiarizing the ACLU’s works?]

Does he think de Judge didn’t have the ACLU’s permission to use that material?

Henry

Actually, no, William Wallace really thinks that Judge Jones should be reprimanded, if not out and out punished, because he used the ACLU’s material without the Discovery Institute’s permission.

Stanton Wrote:

Actually, no, William Wallace really thinks that Judge Jones should be reprimanded, if not out and out punished, because he used the ACLU’s material without the Discovery Institute’s permission.

LOL!

Kmlisle:

If you read the Project for A New American Century you see the same kind of non-ethical approach from the Neo-conservative movement (who brought us the war in Iraq). A Machiavellian use of lies, distortions, and anything goes to further their causes. They have a very arrogant attitude that they know what is best for the “common people” and can use any means available to drag or trick them into supporting their Wars R Us agenda. Interestingly enough they also subscribe to ID and are writing and about it at the Heritage Foundation.

Indeed. I have read this document (and more from the NeoCon website) and I was giving talks on this back when Bush was taking us into Iraq. I was also pointing out the same kinds of tactics being used by the Culture Warriors trying to get ID/Creationism into the schools.

The tactics are extremely similar and no doubt spring from the same political sources.

Salvador Cordova is not taking the news very well

I’m not asserting that the NCSE are idiots, however. Someone once confided to me they thought Eugenie Scott was as smart as Satan, if so, then the letter could be legit, but I’m not so sure.

Poor Sal…

Since William Dembski is known to have pirated the same video, his communications would presumably be of great interest. The Discovery Institute is looking more and more like a criminal conspiracy.

No plagiarism… Just ignorance on the part of our Christian friend

That’s the nice part about being an atheist. I can be more selective in my choice of “friends.”

Since William Dembski is known to have pirated the same video, his communications would presumably be of great interest.

wamba, as so often you hit the proverbial nail on the head. ERV has the goods on William Dembski and No Intelligence Allowed:

Guys, we arent going to have to eat for months after this. More roasted Creationist, this time from William Dembski, Megalomania-TARD:

WD Wrote:

I ve gotten to know the producers quite well. As far as I can tell, they made sure to budget for lawsuits. Also, I know for a fact that they have one of the best intellectual property attorneys in the business. I expect that the producers made their video close enough to the Harvard video to get tongues awagging (Headline: Harvard University Seeks Injunction Against Ben Stein and EXPELLED you think that might generate interest in the movie?), but different enough so that they are unexposed.

WD Wrote:

It was a nice touch on the producer s part to use the same music as the XVIVO video. Presumably they got permission from the artist is that another possible oversight to explore? But then again, one of the producers was for years in the music business. So most likely they re covered here as well.

DUDE! You stole the music too?!?!?! I didnt know that.

As commenter Tyler DiPietro notes, foreknowledge would probably not play to well in court.

Torbjörn Larsson, OM: As commenter Tyler DiPietro notes, foreknowledge would probably not play to well in court.

If anything, I think it’d go worse for Dumbski and the Disco Institute, since his comments seem to show that they had forknowledge and planned this all along.

As a result, in open court they cannot play the “we didn’t know about the copyright” card. It basically shows that they’re lying bastards and that they knew ahead of time they were lying.

What sort of twisted jerk thinks they can do this sort of thing (lying upon lying) and believe that it’s okay?

Whatever happened to “Thou shalt not bear false witness”?

Say it with me now:

It’s not realy lying if you’re Lying For Jesus™!

MattusMaximus:

Torbjörn Larsson, OM: As commenter Tyler DiPietro notes, foreknowledge would probably not play to well in court.

If anything, I think it’d go worse for Dumbski and the Disco Institute, since his comments seem to show that they had forknowledge and planned this all along.

As a result, in open court they cannot play the “we didn’t know about the copyright” card. It basically shows that they’re lying bastards and that they knew ahead of time they were lying.

What sort of twisted jerk thinks they can do this sort of thing (lying upon lying) and believe that it’s okay?

Whatever happened to “Thou shalt not bear false witness”?

This seems to indicate that they knowingly and deliberately broke the law. And they don’t see any moral problem with stealing, nor do they expect to be held accountable for criminal acts. What the hell is wrong with these people?

Wonder how many of these idiots are the same ones who accuse ATHEISTS of having no morals?

Torbjörn Larsson, OM:

Since William Dembski is known to have pirated the same video, his communications would presumably be of great interest.

wamba, as so often you hit the proverbial nail on the head. ERV has the goods on William Dembski and No Intelligence Allowed:

Guys, we arent going to have to eat for months after this. More roasted Creationist, this time from William Dembski, Megalomania-TARD:

WD Wrote:

I ve gotten to know the producers quite well. As far as I can tell, they made sure to budget for lawsuits. Also, I know for a fact that they have one of the best intellectual property attorneys in the business. I expect that the producers made their video close enough to the Harvard video to get tongues awagging (Headline: Harvard University Seeks Injunction Against Ben Stein and EXPELLED you think that might generate interest in the movie?), but different enough so that they are unexposed.

WD Wrote:

It was a nice touch on the producer s part to use the same music as the XVIVO video. Presumably they got permission from the artist is that another possible oversight to explore? But then again, one of the producers was for years in the music business. So most likely they re covered here as well.

DUDE! You stole the music too?!?!?! I didnt know that.

As commenter Tyler DiPietro notes, foreknowledge would probably not play to well in court.

wamba, as so often you hit the proverbial nail on the head.

In contrast to the ID’ers, who seem to keep hitting their thumbs…

Henry

Torbjörn Larsson, OM:

Since William Dembski is known to have pirated the same video, his communications would presumably be of great interest.

wamba, as so often you hit the proverbial nail on the head. ERV has the goods on William Dembski and No Intelligence Allowed:

Guys, we arent going to have to eat for months after this. More roasted Creationist, this time from William Dembski, Megalomania-TARD:

WD Wrote:

I ve gotten to know the producers quite well. As far as I can tell, they made sure to budget for lawsuits. Also, I know for a fact that they have one of the best intellectual property attorneys in the business. I expect that the producers made their video close enough to the Harvard video to get tongues awagging (Headline: Harvard University Seeks Injunction Against Ben Stein and EXPELLED you think that might generate interest in the movie?), but different enough so that they are unexposed.

WD Wrote:

It was a nice touch on the producer s part to use the same music as the XVIVO video. Presumably they got permission from the artist is that another possible oversight to explore? But then again, one of the producers was for years in the music business. So most likely they re covered here as well.

DUDE! You stole the music too?!?!?! I didnt know that.

As commenter Tyler DiPietro notes, foreknowledge would probably not play to well in court.

Where did Dembski make these statements? It sounds like April Fools, but with the ID cretinists you can’t tell.

Phantomreader42 said:

Wonder how many of these idiots are the same ones who accuse ATHEISTS of having no morals?

Actually, it’s completely consistent with their twisted worldview. Remember, to them the only thing that makes something immoral is God declaring it so. Thus, if they are doing God’s work, they can’t possibly be immoral, no matter what.

Ron, my google-fu gave me a link to a screen grab, in case the original disappears.

Hi all,

Though Wes has made superb points in his posting, it will depend ultimately on the quality of legal representation in court. I have been in e-mail contact with the president of XVIVO, and have strongly encouraged him to think of adding attorneys like Eric Rothschild of Pepper Hamilton (who was the lead attorney for the plaintiffs during the Kitzmiller vs. Dover Area School District Trial) or Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School, as well someone who is superb at handling intellectual property rights issues. Although I am well aware of Peter Irons’ credentials (He is currently representing XVIVO.), I am not entirely convinced that Irons could prevail against sophisticated legal power provided to Premise Media courtesy of the Disco Tute (not to mention their own Hollywood attorney(s) too.). Hopefully XVIVO will consider seriously my advice, since I am certain that in any legal showdown with Premise Media, that they would ultimately be confronted too by the Disco Tute.

Regards,

John

Torbjörn Larsson, OM:

Ron, my google-fu gave me a link to a screen grab, in case the original disappears.

Thanks for the links.

For some reason they seem to be taking Dembski seriously, as if this is something normal and acceptable. Why would you bait someone by making your work look like theirs down to using the same music? How would such a stupid admission of copying the material play in court?

There is a claim at uncommonly dense that the XVIVO does not hold the copyright, but Harvard holds the copyright. What entity was supposed to have filed the letter?

Ron Okimoto

How many times has William Wallace copied and pasted something?

Science Avenger:

Phantomreader42 said:

Wonder how many of these idiots are the same ones who accuse ATHEISTS of having no morals?

Actually, it’s completely consistent with their twisted worldview. Remember, to them the only thing that makes something immoral is God declaring it so. Thus, if they are doing God’s work, they can’t possibly be immoral, no matter what.

Not even when God and or Jesus said so in the first place to begin with.

Science Avenger:

Phantomreader42 said:

Wonder how many of these idiots are the same ones who accuse ATHEISTS of having no morals?

Actually, it’s completely consistent with their twisted worldview. Remember, to them the only thing that makes something immoral is God declaring it so. Thus, if they are doing God’s work, they can’t possibly be immoral, no matter what.

I’ve been saying it as a parody, but it’s clear that they really do think that it’s not really lying if you’re Lying For Jesus™!

And they can complain about moral relativism with a straight face because, fundamentally, their brains do not work. They don’t live in the real world.

phantomreader42:

Science Avenger:

Phantomreader42 said:

Wonder how many of these idiots are the same ones who accuse ATHEISTS of having no morals?

Actually, it’s completely consistent with their twisted worldview. Remember, to them the only thing that makes something immoral is God declaring it so. Thus, if they are doing God’s work, they can’t possibly be immoral, no matter what.

I’ve been saying it as a parody, but it’s clear that they really do think that it’s not really lying if you’re Lying For Jesus™!

And they can complain about moral relativism with a straight face because, fundamentally, their brains do not work. They don’t live in the real world.

“What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.” – Martin Luther

(Cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Phillips des Grossmüthigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. I.)

Even the phrase “lying for Jesus” isn’t that far removed from real examples, such as “righteous lying” on this site. The producers of Expelled evidently subscribe to this school of thought.

… Even the phrase “lying for Jesus” isn’t that far removed from real examples, such as “righteous lying” on this site. The producers of Expelled evidently subscribe to this school of thought.

Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

The site misrepresents what Jesus said. He didn’t say he had no intentions of going to the passover; he just wasn’t going with the disciples.

A. Gene Young

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This page contains a single entry by PvM published on April 10, 2008 1:48 AM.

Egnor gets it right was the previous entry in this blog.

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