Mr. Jimmy and Me

| 54 Comments

Earlier this month I attended a dinner party with President Jimmy Carter and his wife, Rosalynn.

Prof. Steve Steve and Pres. Jimmy Carter

Pres. Jimmy Carter meets Prof. Steve Steve

We had chicken and dumplings—the Carters’ favorite—Cornish hens, field peas, sweet potato pies, and banana pudding. There was also slaw, sliced cucumbers, tomatoes, and cantaloupes. In addition, white wine was served with dinner. Regrettably, the chef was not informed of my dietary requirements, and I was unable to have my usual dinner of bamboo and Australian beer.

During dinner, President Carter and I discovered that we had a lot in common. We are both widely traveled and our opinions are sought on some of the most pressing issues of the day. He was the 39th president of the United States, and I’ve met the 39th president of the United States. He was a nuclear engineer in the US Navy; I was an unclear imagineer at Old Navy. He wears a bolo tie, and I wear a bow tie.

Pres. Carter won the Nobel Peace Prize “for his decades of untiring effort to find peaceful solutions to international conflicts, to advance democracy and human rights, and to promote economic and social development.” And I have been nominated five times (only twice by myself) for a Nobel Prize for my research in Creatoinformatics at the University of Ediacara.

Of course, whenever I’m in the room the topic of evolution always comes up (or where to find good beer—A: Athens, GA). Pres. Carter referred us to some current statements of his on evolution and science education. He is a deeply religious man with a background in physics and nuclear engineering, and sees no conflict between his faith and the products of science:

I don’t have a doubt about my faith in God as the ultimate creator of the universe—and so I’ve never had the problem that some have had. I find no incompatibility between the existence of a supreme creator and discoveries that human beings have made through our own intelligence, that God’s given us. I think that God, the creator, has given human beings an ability, maybe even a responsibility or obligation, to learn all that we can about our own existence.

Fittingly, on the morning after the dinner party, I attended church with Pres. Carter, who teaches Sunday School at Maranatha Baptist Church in Plains, GA. (All are welcome.) That day the lesson was about the Christ’s Plan of Salvation. I’ll quote the lesson outline from the bulletin:

All of us are sinners (Romans 3:23) and must be punished (Rom. 6:23). God came to earth as a man to take our punishment, dying on the cross (Rom. 5:8) but rising from the grave to show the total defeat of evil (Luke 24:34). We can be saved only by faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9). We receive this miracle through God’s love (John 3:16) as we make our choice to follow Him.

It was an amazing trip and a once in a lifetime opportunity, but sadly I had to move on and could not stick around Plains, GA for long.

54 Comments

Wow. They summarized The Plan of Salvation. Brave move, as summarizing it always makes the stupidity blatantly obvious.

My favorite summary of it is here: http://www.extian.org/home.htm

Well said, Mr. President.

Jimmy said:

“God came to earth as a man …”

Isn’t this like the X-Man or Superhero motif of movies today, that some alien or human with super-human powers will come down & enlighten us, save us, or screw us up ‘cause we are inherently incapable beings?

Isn’t this like the X-Man or Superhero motif of movies today,

Oh. My. Gawd.

Now I understand the first photo!

Jimmy Carter is secretly Dr. Manhattan!

Actually judging from the tie I was going to guess Iron Man.

He seems like a decent enough guy for the most part, but I wouldn’t particularly want to have dinner with a guy who hangs out with murderous Islamic thugs. Maybe you could have asked him what Hamas thinks of evolution.

Maybe you could have asked him what Hamas thinks of evolution.

It would be easy to respond that the British in 1947 considered Begin a murderous terrorist. Instead, let us avoid a flame war over who is more murderous than who.

The real point of the picture, I assume, is that Carter is a southern Baptist who accepts evolution and is not afraid to say so in public.

Alex said:

He seems like a decent enough guy for the most part, but I wouldn’t particularly want to have dinner with a guy who hangs out with murderous Islamic thugs.

That’s right. The only way to deal with murderous Islamic thugs is from across the ocean, with military hardware!

fnxtr said:

Actually judging from the tie I was going to guess Iron Man.

What, has he lost his mind? :P

Wheels said:

That’s right. The only way to deal with murderous Islamic thugs is from across the ocean, with military hardware!

Well, let’s say I ignore the fact that you’re using a false dichotomy, and accept the idea that there are only two possible ways to interact with theocratic fascists. With such limitations imposed on my choices, it would be an easy pick indeed; I’d much rather “deal with them with military hardware” than let them use me as a propaganda puppet so that they can continue to kill and enslave innocent people.

Luckily, though, you ARE making an argument based on a false dichotomy, so there’s a whole spectrum of options to choose from. Unfortunately, jimmy chose to place himself on the extreme end of the spectrum.

I really am interested in what his buddies think of evolution, though. If they’re anything like their Nigerian counterparts, I suspect there might be a wee bit of a disagreement between them.

Alex said:

… you’re using a false dichotomy …

Whereas you said you’d avoid the man because he “hangs out with murderous Islamic thugs.” One good fallacy deserves another, wouldn’t you say?

Wheels said:

Whereas you said you’d avoid the man because he “hangs out with murderous Islamic thugs.” One good fallacy deserves another, wouldn’t you say?

Eh? Talk about a non-sequitur :) Logical fallacies don’t apply to personal preferences - only to discussions.

If I say that your argument (whatever it may be) should be dismissed because you’re friends with such-and-such, that would be a logical fallacy. If I say I have no interest in being around you because of the company you keep, that’s not a logical fallacy. The veracity of an argument may not hinge on the character of it’s proponent, but the character of an individual can have a huge bearing on whether or not they’re good company.

Jimmy Carter? He’s history’s greatest monster!

Simpson said:

Jimmy Carter? He’s history’s greatest monster!

You forgot the link to the episode: Marge in Chains.

Fittingly, on the morning after the dinner party, I attended church with Pres. Carter, who teaches Sunday School at Maranatha Baptist Church in Plains, GA.

What’s “fitting” about attending a place that teaches such nuttery? We are all sinners? We deserve punishment? WTF does this have to do with accepting evolution? These beliefs are held regardless of the findings of science (and, it could be argued, against the spirit of rational inquiry given lip service earlier). But this nonsense doesn’t “fit” with science in any way.

Prof. Steve Steve met Pres. Carter! But the majority of the comments here are strongly negative opinions about Carter’s religious beliefs or politics. What does PSS have to do to impress you all? Hang out with Erin Andrews?

H. H., Prof. Steve Steve made no connection between the Sunday School lesson and science, and I feel that you have argued against a straw man. It was fitting that PSS attended Carter’s Sunday School because he was just discussing Carter’s religious beliefs. It was also fitting because visiting his church is a reliable way to meet and have a conversation with Carter.

We need to stick to the fact that Jimmy Carter is a decent Christian, who accepts evolution. People who think Hamas are Islamic thugs are getting their facts wrong, like Creationists. If you don’t know what I am talking about, just do some internet research on the topic of “Greater Israel”.

Well, I will say something nice about Jimmy Carter.

He wasn’t a great president but a lot of historians believe he was good. One well known historian rates him in the top 5. He kept us out of war, Volcker and him did a lot to stomp out staglation, left over from the Vietnam era.

He is also the real rare bird. A genuinely good person who happens to also be a good xian who doesn’t just talk the talk but walk it as well.

One can disagree with his positions on issues but not on his character.

And oh yeah.

President Carter did something extrenely difficult.

He brokered a peace deal between Israel and an Arab country, Egypt. The peace has held for decades, a cold peace but better than a cold war… or a hot one.

Without that, one could easily imagine that Arabs and Israelis will fight forever until one side is wiped out. Or both maybe.

Not only a good President, a fine man, and an example of why genuine Christians - as opposed to fundamentalist book-worshippers - get cut some slack, for mine. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis[…]hts-equality

Does he still go to a whites-only church?

I was raised in a rural, northern Baptist church.

Obviously, I don’t practice that religion formally any more, but it was not a negative experience.

Except for the fact that they had less money and less education, the people who attended shared a lot of President Carter’s good traits. In fact, he always reminds me of them. They were all white; the church served a very rural white area.

They respected education and knowledge.

They were often kind and humane. In an amazing contrast to the state of affairs today, the people who were active Christians were often the most trustworthy members of the community.

None of the sermons ever had anything to do with hell or sex, or any kind of harsh authoritarian judgmentalism or triumphalist proclamations of superior “saved” status.

I was born after the civil rights era. We have seen a lot of progress in US society since my childhood, in some areas. Women’s status and gay rights have improved a great deal since my childhood. Statistics indicate that ethnic bigotry has less impact on some people than it used to, and we have elected an African-American president.

On the other hand there’s been a massive increase in prison population and executions, and we seem to have gone backward on standard of living and education.

Whether times have changed for the better (as I think they have on balance) or not, they don’t seem to make them like Jimmy Carter any more.

”All of us are sinners (Romans 3:23) and must be punished (Rom. 6:23). God came to earth as a man to take our punishment, dying on the cross (Rom. 5:8) but rising from the grave to show the total defeat of evil (Luke 24:34). We can be saved only by faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9). We receive this miracle through God’s love (John 3:16) as we make our choice to follow Him.”

Those are words but there are facts. While President Carter teaches that ”marvelous” truth, little girls and little boys are being raped somewhere on the face of this earth. God, being omnipotent knows about it. being omnipresent, is there. Being omnipotent, He would have the power to stop it but He does not. Proof : rapes are still going on. How revolting. I have made my choice not to follow a Being like that. How can they worship him?

Ah, the ancient problem of evil. Rapes are pretty easily answered: humans are endowed with free will. We can choose to do evil. If evil were impossible, then good would be meritless. It would appear that if there is a God, He wishes us to choose good, and to that end, must allow us the choice.

Natural evil is far more of a problem. A natural calamity seems to be grossly unjust. The innocent suffer, and often the worst and most conscienceless actually profit from it. To meet this problem, theologians have often quibbled over the nature of evil. Is, say, a hurricane or a bushfire an evil thing because it causes death amid great suffering?

It’s difficult to attribute actual evil to forces of nature, even calamities. Nevertheless, what we recognise as evil must be evil - after all, Christian theology, at least, says we acquired the knowledge of good and evil at considerable cost.

So. How about this: a few months ago, in this city, fraternal twins were born, a boy and a girl. The girl was normal, which was why the pregnancy was not naturally or artificially terminated, because the boy suffered from an unrepairable spina bifida so severe that he would only live a few days. He would only know pain in his tiny life, and his parents could only watch and suffer, and would carry that suffering all their days.

Is that evil? Most would say it is. Theologians try to argue that suffering is part of God’s plan and purpose, and who am I to know the purposes of God? I say it’s a raw deal, and He’d better be able to explain it, if I ever meet Him.

Dave Luckett said: Ah, the ancient problem of evil.

Ancient, maybe, but still relevant to real-world issues. I often think fundamentalists object to the TOE not so much out of some loyalty to biblical literalism, but more because, like a tornado, it seems so profoundly unjust.

In terms of helping fundamentalists accept it, its worth regularly making the point that evolution should be no more of a problem for christianity than any other ‘natural evil.’

Dave Luckett said: He would only know pain in his tiny life, and his parents could only watch and suffer, and would carry that suffering all their days.

Is that evil? Most would say it is. Theologians try to argue that suffering is part of God’s plan and purpose, and who am I to know the purposes of God? I say it’s a raw deal, and He’d better be able to explain it, if I ever meet Him.

How about this? There were eight Guards of directions, called Ashta (eight) Vasu(s). The youngest of them stole the divine cow of Vasishtar. (That cow is like a vaccucopia capable of producing anything you ask for). The other seven “Vasu”s helped to hide the cow. Vasishtar was enraged. He cursed them all to be born on Earth as human beings as punishment. Once the Guards showed contrition and remorse he reduced the sentence. The seven abettors will live serve a token sentence of being born and will die immediately and return. The eighth one will live a full life, but will live it with such high dignity and honor he will be praised for all eternity, even in some strange message board discussing evolution.

Thus they were born to Emperor Shantanu, and his wife who was the Mother Ganges, incarnate. By previous agreement Shantanu kept quiet when she threw seven of her babies, one after another into the river as soon as they were born. He broke his silence and objected to the infanticide when the eighth child was born. Mother Ganges said, “ah, haa! you questioned my actions. By our prenuptial agreement, I leave you. But you can keep this last son. Bye Bye”

All Hail Bheeshman, born Satyavradhan, General Officer Commanding in Chief for the 11 division army of the Kuru dynasty in the Battle of Kurukshetra, 3000 BCE approx. (He lost. Killed on the 10th day. By Arjun.)

May be that child with a short painful life is a noble soul sent to Earth to serve out a token sentence due to some minor misdemeanor in the heavens.

Religion can explain almost anything. The only requirement is that you don’t ask pesky questions and cross examine the explainer. :-)

ravilyn:

May be that child with a short painful life is a noble soul sent to Earth to serve out a token sentence due to some minor misdemeanor in the heavens.

Got that all wrong!!! Those children were doing time for what they did in their past lives. Karma and reincarnation. It could have been worse. They could have been sent back as earth worms or internet trolls.

You have committed heresy. I believe at this point, it is either war with opposing armies or just stoning the heretic to death. But since we are pretending to be Hindus, they just pat a sacred cow on the head or something.

harold:

They respected education and knowledge.

They were often kind and humane.

My early xian experience wasn’t negative in the least. Our liberal protestant denomination was more into social justice, eliminating poverty, and world peace. As opposed to some of the current demons who are into ignorance, overthrowing the US government which they hate, and heading on back to the Dark Ages.

When the Vietnam war started, boys not that much older than me started coming back in boxes. For kids, this was traumatic. We were Americans and immortal, such things couldn’t happen. The antiwar groups were usually based in church basements. I still respect the Unitarian church for that. Their phone had a tape sticker on it. “Don’t say anything on this phone that you wouldn’t say to the FBI. Because they are listening.”

The fundie cults look like the opposite and polls show, they are destroying xianity in the USA. “As you sow, so shall you reap.”

The fundie cults look like the opposite and polls show, they are destroying xianity in the USA.

“I think God is great - and I mean that sincerely. The problem is, I just can’t stand his staff.” -Bill Maher

Dave Luckett said:

Ah, the ancient problem of evil. Rapes are pretty easily answered: humans are endowed with free will. We can choose to do evil. If evil were impossible, then good would be meritless. It would appear that if there is a God, He wishes us to choose good, and to that end, must allow us the choice.

What a weak cop-out. By that definition heaven could have no free will since there is no evil there. Sheer nonsense - your all-powerful designer could have easily designed us with the power to do evil but the desire to do only good. Free will doesn’t explain evil - it only masks it.

Do any theists actually find that argument persuasive?

Is the rape of children part of God’s plan? What kind of a God would give man the permission (free will, choice,…)knowing in advance (omniscience)that man would use this free will to rape children day after day, year after year, century after century. Not only that because in doing so (giving free will), God condemn himself (being omnipresent) to attend thoses rapes and do nothing (because he gave free will to man …) day after day, year after year, century after century… and never get sick. Like Alex said : Free will doesn’t explain evil - it only masks it.

Reed A. Cartwright wrote:

H. H., Prof. Steve Steve made no connection between the Sunday School lesson and science, and I feel that you have argued against a straw man. It was fitting that PSS attended Carter’s Sunday School because he was just discussing Carter’s religious beliefs. It was also fitting because visiting his church is a reliable way to meet and have a conversation with Carter.

With all due respect, it was Carter himself who made a connection between science and his Christianity, and Prof. Steve Steve appeared to be expressing approval for this connection by stating it was “fitting” to end his interview with an advertisement for Christian theology. If Carter was a Scientologist who claimed that evolution didn’t in any way conflict with his faith in Xenu and the belief that all human ills are a result of being infected with alien souls, would this too have been uncritically and positively asserted as “fitting?” I’m just pointing out that the juxtaposition between rational science and any irrational dogma is glaringly incongruous, and an endorsement of the former by an individual deeply invested in the latter seriously undermines confidence in their overall judgment. There is such a thing as being right for the wrong reasons, and President Carter’s particular form of woo shouldn’t be given deference purely on the grounds of his celebrity. Carter’s reasons for accepting evolution are bogus, frankly, and should not be promoted as a positive example of science literacy, since it clearly is not.

novparl said:

Does he still go to a whites-only church?

As a frequent visitor to Carter’s church as well as the hostess of the dinner party I can assure you that his church is open to anyone who wishes to come. You can join him for Sunday school any Sunday he plans to teach. After that you can even have your picture made with him outside the church. I think he is a fine individual, and an excellent Sunday school teacher even if I don’t agree with his politics.

The fundie cults look like the opposite and polls show, they are destroying xianity in the USA.

Interesting claim. “Fundie Cults” are “destroying Christianity in the USA.”

Truly an evil-oid sociological development.

Therefore please tell me who these evil-oid Fundie Cults are, specifically.

And tell me how they are doing this evil-oid destruction to American Christianity, specifically.

Please supply supporting documentation as well. Thank you.

FL

H.H. said:

With all due respect, it was Carter himself who made a connection between science and his Christianity, and Prof. Steve Steve appeared to be expressing approval for this connection by stating it was “fitting” to end his interview with an advertisement for Christian theology.

A factual description of what the Sunday School lesson was about is not an advertisement for the theology. I think that we can make readers aware of the possibility of attending church with a former president, without endorsing or promoting theology.

Reed A. Cartwright said: A factual description of what the Sunday School lesson was about is not an advertisement for the theology. I think that we can make readers aware of the possibility of attending church with a former president, without endorsing or promoting theology.

Well, ok, we obviously don’t agree, but I can’t see beating a dead horse. I’ll just say that it came off like an endorsement to me.

FL:

Please supply supporting documentation as well. Thank you.

Why would you want documentation? You ignore any and all facts consistently. Below is one such that happened to be in an accesible file.

I’ve been following the downward spiral. The polling data mostly, Pew and Gallup. Self identified xians in the USA have dropped from 84% to 76% in a few decades. Roughly 0.5%/year or 1-2 million people leaving in a year.

The Theothuglican party is now about 25% of the electorate.

Polls also show a huge decline among young people recently.

Even Ken Ham, a questionable source to be sure, says 2 out of 3 young people will leave the church.

Google it if you care because I’m not wasting too much time on you.

50% - More Conservatives Now Say Churches Should Stay Out of Politics Wed Sep 24, 12:00 AM ET Half of self-described conservatives now express the view that churches and other houses of worship should stay out of politics; four years ago, only 30% of conservatives expressed this view. Overall, a new national survey by the Pew Research Center finds a narrow majority of the public (52%) now says that churches and other houses of worship should keep out of political matters and not express their views on day-to-day social and political matters. For a decade, majorities of Americans had voiced support for religious institutions speaking out on such issues. The survey also finds that most of the reconsideration of the desirability of religious involvement in politics has occurred among conservatives. As a result, conservatives’ views on this issue are much more in line with the views of moderates and liberals than was previously the case. Similarly, the sharp divisions between Republicans and Democrats that previously existed on this issue have disappeared. There are other signs in the new poll about a potential change in the climate of opinion about mixing religion and politics. First, the survey finds a small but significant increase since 2004 in the percentage of respondents saying that they are uncomfortable when they hear politicians talk about how religious they are – from 40% to 46%. Again, the increase in negative sentiment about religion and politics is much more apparent among Republicans than among Democrats.

Looks like there is a backlash against the Death Cults. These are nihilists who have only brought death and destruction during their time in power. Their latest victim is the US economy, the largest in the world at one time. Palin is one, a hardcore religious kook.

Therefore please tell me who these evil-oid Fundie Cults are, specifically.

Look in the mirror FL.

Bush’s approval ratings when he left were about as low as any presidents. And what group supported him? The answer was in my last post.

And tell me how they are doing this evil-oid destruction to American Christianity, specifically.

Anyway you can, right FL.

1. Xian terrorists assasinating MDs and burning down family planning facilities. Terrorism isn’t popular these days.

2. Bad government. The national debt increased by 5 trillion USD under Bush while the US and world economies took a nose dive we still haven’t recovered from.

Pointless wars to accomplish nothing that left piles of bodies. Two of my friends died in Iraq.

3. Fundies attempting to cram their beliefs down everyone else’s throats. Creationism in public schools, wars against all sciences, attempting to limit birth control, pushing abstinence only sex ed which is proven to not work, stem cells, faith healers killing their kids, and on and on. Read the poll in the previous post again. People are sick of it. Most of them are other xians.

lifeway:

Some Young Adults Are Leaving Church What’s their gripe? And what can you learn from this exodus?

By Doug Horchak An April-May 2007 study in the United States found that young adults are leaving Christian churches in record numbers. The primary reason? They find their church irrelevant to their lives and many of its members judgmental or hypocritical.

A survey by LifeWay Research revealed that “seven in 10 Protestants ages 18 to 30 … who went to church regularly in high school said they quit attending by age 23 … And 34% of those said they had not returned, even sporadically, by age 30 …

“‘This is sobering news,’ says Ed Stetzer, director of Nashville-based LifeWay Research, which is affiliated with the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. ‘It seems the teen years are like a free trial on a product. By 18, when it’s their choice whether to buy in to church life, many don’t feel engaged and welcome,’ says associate director Scott McConnell” (Cathy Lynn Grossman, “Young Adults Aren’t Sticking With Church,” USA Today, Aug. 8, 2007).

Here is what the Southern Baptists say, FWIW.

So, we are told that “Fundie Cults are destroying Christianity in the USA”, but when asked, nobody is able to specifically identify who these Fundie Cults are or what specifically distinguishes them as Fundie Cults.

Is Maranatha Baptist Church in Plains, Georgia, one of those Fundie Cults? After all, they publicly (and literally) insist that:

All of us are sinners (Romans 3:23) and must be punished (Rom. 6:23).

God came to earth as a man to take our punishment, dying on the cross (Rom. 5:8), but rising from the grave to show the total defeat of evil (Luke 24:34).

We can be saved only by faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9). We receive this miracle through God’s love (John 3:16) as we make our choice to follow Him.

Does this fundamentalist, literalist, non-negotiable belief make Jimmy Carter’s church a “Fundie Cult”? Hmmm?

And check this out folks, from their website:

Maranatha is a Bible-believing, Christ-centered fellowship dedicated to the worship of Almighty God and the taking of the gospel message to the ends of the earth.

Bible-believing. Evangelistic. Missionary-minded. Christ-centered. It’s clearly NOT a liberal, all-roads-lead-to-God church.

So, is Jimmy Carter’s church a “Fundie Cult”, Raven? Tell me.

******

We are also told that according to Pew and Gallup, “Self identified xians in the USA have dropped from 84% to 76% in a few decades”, but we are not told by Pew and Gallup specifically whether these unspecified and undefined “Fundie Cults” have anything to do with that particular statistic. Can you nail that one down a little, Raven?

The same issue arises when we are told by a Southern-Baptist publishing group:

A survey by LifeWay Research revealed that “seven in 10 Protestants ages 18 to 30 … who went to church regularly in high school said they quit attending by age 23 … And 34% of those said they had not returned, even sporadically, by age 30 …

But once again, nothing is said about unspecified and undefined “Fundie Cults” being the cause of that statistic.

The only reasons offered are “They find their church irrelevant to their lives and many of its members judgmental or hypocritical” – and that can happen to individual teens in anybody’s church, on any side of any fence. Again, undefined and unspecified “Fundie Cults” were NOT mentioned as any sort of reason in Lifeway’s survey, just as they weren’t mentioned in Pew and Gallup polls.

What sayest thou, Raven?

******

Finally, we are told of “Pointless wars to accomplish nothing that left piles of bodies.” (Needless to say, undefined “Fundie Cults” aren’t in charge of where American soldiers are deployed overseas. That’s a presidential-congressional domain, not a church domain.)

Curiously Iraq was mentioned but NOT Afghanistan, where even now Mr. Obama is deliberately sending MORE (not less) American soldiers, and where our soldiers are dying from roadside bombs and attacks.

Got no complaints about Democrat Obama and Afghanistan, Raven? Hmmm?

******

FL

FL lying again as expected:

So, we are told that “Fundie Cults are destroying Christianity in the USA”, but when asked, nobody is able to specifically identify who these Fundie Cults are or what specifically distinguishes them as Fundie Cults.

I answered your question and as usual you ignored the facts.

Look in the mirror FL. You are one. You and your evil mental defectives are it and them’s the facts from polls.We all know who the fundie death cults are. Palin, Dobson, Robertson, Falwell, Kennedy, Hagee, Parsley, Haggard, etc. and the so called “family values” gang of GOP hypocritical politicians (Sanford, Ensign, Pickering, etc.) who make a mockery of the religion.

FL being stupid as usual:

Got no complaints about Democrat Obama and Afghanistan, Raven? Hmmm?

Not very bright are you? Bad guessing.

I supported the Afghanistan strike by Bush. We were attacked on 9/11 by a gang of religious fanatics and the Taliban were fully complicit. We have the right and duty of self defense and the Taliban, who are murderous zealots that no one should have missed, were fully involved.

How long we should stay is questionable. I have no idea.

I’ve got lots of disagreements with Obama but a lot less than Bush. Like the majority of Americans.

What is the difference between Moslem fanatics like the Taliban and Xian fanatics like the Death Cults and FL? Nothing really, religious fanatics are all the same and many are nihilistic authoritarians.

FL, keep lying and hating, it is a free country. “As you sow, so shall you reap.” The polls show that you and your kind are driving people out of xianity by the millions.

BTW, I asked you repeatedly what the name of your cult was. You never answered that I saw. Here is an opportunity to tell the truth. Let’s see if you can do it for once.

Left out the creationist Dishonesty Institute. They are funded by xian Dominionist money. Their stated goal is to overthrow the US government, set up a theocracy, and head on back to the Dark Ages. It is right there in the founding document, The Wedge.

@ Raven

Where does it say anything in the Wedge about the Dark Ages? Inherently unlikely they’d be open about it. Who’s a liar now. Since you claim Xianism is on the decline anyway, why feel so threatened. I notice none of your “friends” pt out this gigantic contradiction.

@ FL - if of any interest, British Quakers will be voting today to conduct queer marriages. Penn of Pennsylvania is turning in his grave.

Alles fuer Darwin!

Barna poll:

Even among young Christians … [half] of young churchgoers said they perceive Christianity to be, too judgmental, hypocritical, and too political. One-third said it was old-fashioned and out of touch with reality.

Barna is a xian research firm. Even young xians think sects are too political, judgmental, hypocritical, old-fashioned, and “out of touch with reality.”

Other polls I posted showed that many of these xians will leave the religion.

Which sects are political? The religious right death cults who owned Bush and own the GOP.

There you go, polling data showing that the death cults are destroying US xianity.

Last post on this subject. FL has shown that he will lie, ignore facts, change the subject, and move the goal posts at 120 mph. Longer than I can stay interested. It’s a death cult thing.

The Sunday school bit is what gets up my goat. Sunday school, that place where adults tell lies to innocent little children, and insist it is true. Yikes!

shonny said:

The Sunday school bit is what gets up my goat. Sunday school, that place where adults tell lies to innocent little children, and insist it is true. Yikes!

I believe that the sunday school class in question was an adults’ class.

H.H. said: Carter’s reasons for accepting evolution are bogus, frankly, and should not be promoted as a positive example of science literacy, since it clearly is not.

H.H., I just read through the Stanford interview given in the link. There are two questions on evolution (one general, one on human evolution), and neither of them specifically discuss Carter’s reasons for accepting evolution. His comments do point to a belief that God wants humans to use our brains.

If anything, his general comments seem to support the notion that science is a way of learning about the world. After all, he thinks kids should learn to do science.

I didn’t read the other link, but what specific ‘reasons for accepting evolution’ do you object to?

His comments do point to a belief that God wants humans to use our brains.

Right, and it’s that idea–that our rational minds are given to us to be used by god–that’s bogus, since a rational mind would reject irrational faith altogether. Carter’s statement, therefore, is a contradiction, but it’s presented as if it’s parsimonious. Perhaps I misspoke when I referenced his reasons for accepting evolution. You’re right, I don’t know exactly what those are. But Carter seemed to imply that science itself is a gift bestowed on mankind by his benevolent god, and I find that grating.

raven said:

BTW, I asked (FL) repeatedly what the name of your cult was. You never answered that I saw. Here is an opportunity to tell the truth. Let’s see if you can do it for once.

FL couldn’t do that if his pants caught on fire.

H.H. said:

His comments do point to a belief that God wants humans to use our brains.

Right, and it’s that idea–that our rational minds are given to us to be used by god–that’s bogus, since a rational mind would reject irrational faith altogether. Carter’s statement, therefore, is a contradiction, but it’s presented as if it’s parsimonious. Perhaps I misspoke when I referenced his reasons for accepting evolution. You’re right, I don’t know exactly what those are. But Carter seemed to imply that science itself is a gift bestowed on mankind by his benevolent god, and I find that grating.

Well, H.H., do realize that, contrary to what FL and other creationist trolls here may suggest, not everyone who who believes in God(s) are not sneering bigots, completely truth-impaired, or frothing maniacs. Granted, many people use their faith in God as license to be such, but, please don’t assume that all do.

Stanton said: Well, H.H., do realize that, contrary to what FL and other creationist trolls here may suggest, not everyone who who believes in God(s) are not sneering bigots, completely truth-impaired, or frothing maniacs. Granted, many people use their faith in God as license to be such, but, please don’t assume that all do.

I have no idea what I said that could lead you to make that assumption about me, but I’m already well aware that not all theists are bigots or maniacs. “Truth-impaired” is certainly debatable, however.

FL couldn’t do that if his pants caught on fire.

I proved my assertion that fundie death cults are destroying xianity in the USA. Using mostly xian death cult sources. The brighter among them are aware of it. Of course, FL bugged out.

And he never did disclose the name of his cult. Must be small, weird, and malevolent. Some of these cults still practice human child sacrifice. There were two cases just this week that resulted in convictions, one in Oregon, one in Wisconsin. Death cults for sure.

I see that my suggestion that the existence of free will in humans might explain human evil has been summarily dismissed on the interesting grounds that, one, it means that dwellers in Heaven can’t possess it, and two, that God would get sick of allowing it, given the results.

I can only yield gracefully to such certain knowledge of Heaven and of the mind of God. As to whether theists find the argument persuasive, I couldn’t say, not being one. I suppose it’s possible that some do - perhaps in much the same proportion there are as militant atheists capable of civil discourse.

Nice to hear from FL again!

Let me remind everyone that on 30 May 2009, at 4:02 AM, FL listed “a total of FOUR huge, long-standing, and intractable reasons why evolution is incompatible with Christianity. “

A mere 7 hours and 38 minutes later, Dave Luckett quietly, modestly, and politely demolished each of FL’s “long-standing and intractable reasons”.

One hour and 12 minutes after that FL promised a reply to Dave and to the others who had responded to FL.

Instead, on 4 June 2009, FL changed the subject about the first “intractable reason” and then changed the subject about the second “intractable reason”, then said “I want to eliminate the last two squibs tomorrow if I can.”

Well, FL, it’s been two months rather than one day. But do you care to comment on the way you demolished your own claim?

I think a lot of you are missing the point. The point wasn’t jimmy carters politics or how he teaches sunday school.

This piece could have honestly been done with any religious-tempered person who tolerates free scientific inquiry where ever it may lead.

Though I personally don’t see how you can be both rational and religious at the same time - too much doublethink involved.

About this Entry

This page contains a single entry by Prof. Steve Steve published on July 28, 2009 10:22 PM.

An Open Challenge to Dr. William Dembski was the previous entry in this blog.

Dembski Confirms it’s Science Envy is the next entry in this blog.

Find recent content on the main index or look in the archives to find all content.

Categories

Archives

Author Archives

Powered by Movable Type 4.361

Site Meter