I just came across what is apparently a major online revision to the German creationist textbook Evolution - ein kritisches Lehrbuch, by Reinhard Junker and Siegfried Scherer. The section is section 9.4. There is an HTML summary (original German, google translation) and a 32-page PDF is here (apparently too long for google to translate).
Sadly, while I took German in high school, most of what I remember involves beer-drinking songs, which doesn’t help me out much here. Clearly Matzke (2003/6) and Pallen & Matzke (2006) and perhaps other commentary on flagellum evolution got deep under their skin – most of the chapter seems to be taken up with attempting to refute the evolutionary model for the origin of the flagellum! Regardless, I can tell there are a few issues – they cite the 2003 critiques of the flagellum evolution model by the pseudonymous “Mike Gene”, without noting that several later scientific developments caused Mike Gene to substantially improve his opinion about even the most radical part of Matzke 2003, which was the idea that a good chunk of the flagellum was homologous to the F1Fo-ATPase and relatives. (The original seems to be lost to the internet ghosts, but Ed Brayton blogged it, see: “Mike Gene Admits Matzke was Right”)
Anyway, if anyone knows of a source that can translate PDFs, or if there are any German speakers up for summarizing their main points, it would be interesting to hear if they’ve come up with anything new. I mean, there’s 32 whole pages, so maybe they will actually acknowledge that Luskin & numerous DI sources were wildly wrong about the number of required, flagellum-unique proteins in the flagellum. And actually, it does look kind of like Junker & Scherer are advancing some argument that relies on the idea that the flagellum parts are not unique, but instead were designed to serve multiple independent functions (see Figure 4). How conveniently like evolutionary cooption!
You should be able to cut and paste from the PDF into a text file, which you can then feed to an online translation service.
Looks like you can just upload the whole PDF here… http://translate.google.com
…produces OK translation, better than I thought…
An algorithm for creationist argumentation.
..Enter ObservationA
..While ObservationA = TRUE
.…Print Observation A, “proves God designed living creatures.”
.…If EvidenceSubroutine(ObservationA) = FALSE, then ObservationA = not(ObservationA)
..Wend
For example, spontaneous generation. When it was thought to be true, it was undeniable proof of God’s creation. Now that we know it to be false, it is *lack* of spontaneous generation that is undeniable proof of God’s creation.
At least this PDF is further proof that creationism isn’t just an American lunacy. Takes the pressure off … a little bit.
Good shot CL, I didn’t think of it that way.
I have no doubt that it WAS thought to be proof of creation, but do you have any references to back that up? Not challenging you, just looking for ammo.
Actually, I look at it more along the lines of metastasis.
Sort of like interpreting the Bible, and coming up with innumerable denominations based upon diametrically opposed ‘inspirations’, wouldn’t you say?
The spread of the disease is of course not welcome, but at least Americans are not uniquely prone to it.
Aw c’mon, we’re not going to get into a dispute over scriptural interpretation on THIS thread now, are we?
True, alas.
Look at the various science departments at schools in the Middle East.
Ur. We could be doing worse for ourselves. From some notes I took on a survey of the Arab world run in THE ECONOMIST in early 2008:
Well sure, why do you think it’s true that life looks designed?
It’s because all of the evidence predicted by evolutionary theory is actually evidence for design.
You just think that evolution makes predictions different from those of design. The lack of foresight, rationality, or thinking outside of the taxonomic category are all predictions of design rightly constructed (namely, after it becomes irrefutable), not evidence of a mindless process at all!
Haven’t you evilutionists gotten that yet? We’ll just say it millions of more times, and then you’ll have to concede that ID is right.
Glen Davidson
Even bet that certain easily-excited PTers don’t recognize this as a Loki troll.
I would think that drinking songs would be very helpful in dealing with this garbage.
Ellen Degeneres once had a line about sorting her CD collection while stoned – and finding out the next day that she’d put The Doors, The Carpenters, and Nine-Inch Nails together.
I had to think about that one for a second. Some things do make more sense when under the influence than the do sober.
Drinking songs may indeed be helpful…particularly reading creationist criticisms as provided through Google Translate… here’s what I got. Not great but you can get the gist of it…
I’m going from memory about the spontaneous generation. Will try to find some direct quotes in the not too distant future.
There’s a quote I’ve been desperate to find about heart function. I remember seeing a documentary about medical history that quoted a pre-scientific anatomist saying that the function of the heart was to filter blood from one ventricle to the other. The fact that blood does not leak from one side to the other in sheep’s hearts was taken as proof of divine intervention with every heartbeat. I’ve always wanted to find that quote, but it has eluded my searches (it would help if I could remember the name of the documentary).
No sweat, just curious.
Chris, you’re likely thinking of Aelius Galenus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen), who was undeniably important for anatomy and physiology, but postulated structures (such as the heart-filter) which simply don’t exist.
co, thanks for the Galen link. I know that Galen was an amazing scientist for his time who had the misfortune to become the Official Doctrinal Figure on medicine and thus all of his mistakes became ossified as medical canon for centuries, and now the mistakes are what he’s mostly remembered for.
I’ll have to look through Galen’s work for that quote, but I don’t know if he said it or if it was one of the many commentators who followed.
Reply to Nick Matzke’s translation:
Very nice. One thing that stood out for me was Paul Nelson’s repeating what Phillip Johnson was reported to have said some years ago:
“The theme has also Paul Nelson as an important representative of ID: “Easily the biggest design challenge facing the ID community is to develop a full-fledged theory of biological. We do not have such a theory right now, and that’s a problem. Without a theory, it’s very hard to know where to direct your research focus. Right now, we’ve got a bag of powerful intuition, and a handful of notions such as ‘irreducible complexity’ and ‘specified complexity’ - but, as yet, no general theory of biological design. “(Nelson 2004).
This still holds true today. But I’m sure those at the Dishonesty Institute’s puppet pseudo-science lab are hard at work on this very issue.
As for Behe’s comment:
“The conclusion is m. E. obvious that the total probability considered for the evolutionary step is very small. How small? Behe writes: “However, as the complexity of an interacting system increases, the likelihood of such an indirect route drops precipitously. And as the number of unexplained, irreducibly complex biological systems increases, our confidence that Darwin’s criterion of failure has been met Skyrockets toward the maximum that science allows. “(Behe 1996).
So then what is the probability of winning PowerBall? It certainly isn’t infinitely small, and someone wins every few weeks, a totally random affair. And he is basing in reasoning on what? Creationist assertions.
I know you hate to admit it Matzke, but you KNOW Behe was right.
In order to show that Behe was wrong, you need to demonstrate first, how many intermediate steps there are on the road to bacterial flagellum land ( I count at least 10 steps) and second, what the functions for each of these intermediate steps are. (I understand you may believe this to be an unfair burden to you (pl). However, it is crucial to your refutation of Behe. Note your first attempt at refutation with the assertion of T3SS secretion system as being a precursor to the b/f has failed, since it has been shown that T3SS is most likely a devolution of and not a precursor to the b/f).
For example, the b/f had to be built from the basal body outwards. The basal body is fixed to the inner membrane. So what was the function of the basal body fixed in the inner membrane before it added the C-Ring?
Next, what was the function of the basal body and the C-Ring before it added the MS-Ring?
After that, we need to know the function of the next intermediate step, the basal body + C-Ring + MS-Ring.
Moving along, what is the function of the basal body + C-Ring + MS-Rings + the newly added stators? Note for these intermediate steps in the flagelllum’s development, the new parts are placed in the periplasmic space. What advantage would the function of these intermediate configurations be considering the fact that these new parts are neither within the cell (to presumably support internal functions) nor outside of the cell (to presumably support locomotion or defense)?
Without this knowledge, how can we say with any scientific confidence that the bacterium did not contain within its genome a pre-existing program for the expression of a flagellum waiting to be triggered by an environmental cue (like cecal valves in lizards)? Why would a scientist discard such an intuition when all the observations point in this direction?
By the same logic, icicle formation is also impossible. In order for a water molecule to lock into a particular position, it has to be oriented just right; exactly the right amount of energy has to be removed, and it cannot be dislodged by the impact of an air molecule whizzing by.
On top of all that, the molecule has to have migrated along a path of an already improbably formed nascent icicle in order to find itself in just exactly the right position when the energy release occurs and it locks into position.
Even more fantastic is the final formation of the icicle. How could it possibly be in exactly that shape with all the various bands and wrinkles along its length and with exactly those neighboring icicles of the size and shape they have?
And this is just the simple stuff. How about superconductivity? How is it possible for a phonon to exactly coordinate the movement of two electrons, one with spin up the other with spin down? When this happens with billions upon billions of such pairs, the probability is astronomically small. Yet these billions and billions of electrons are chosen and paired off in “Cooper pairs” so that they become a collection of bosons that then condense into a superconducting state in which they flow through the solid material without any resistance whatsoever.
If they have no resistance, how do they interact with the phonons that are singling them out and pairing them off into Cooper pairs?
Ever look at the sequence of license plate numbers in the huge parking lot of a large shopping mall? What is the probability you would find that sequence? How could those cars be there; and how could those particular car owners be in that shopping mall at the same time?
According to Behe’s logic, the world doesn’t exist.
Mike Elzinga,
Paul Davies also uses the “it’s improbable therefore designed” argument as well (although he’s too sophisticated to propose an anthropomorphic designer; he’s more of a Spinozan, not that it stopped him taking the Templeton bait). A properly shuffled deck of cards has 8x10^67 possible orderings – which means by Davies/Behe logic, you can’t shuffle a pack of cards because any given combination is so unlikely.
Mr. Elzinga, I understand your viewpoint that you believe physics and chemistry account for all manner of material configurations whether they be inanimate or animate.
Yet, there are crucial differences in your icicle analogy: 1) the water molecule that accounts for the icicle is no special or particular variant of H2O. There is no difference between your water molecule in the icicle and the water that forms a pool of water in a pothole, or the water that is in the mist on Mom’s roses, or the water in my tea, or the water in tears, or the water in the ocean;
2) the icicle is formed by only one molecule- water. It is not a configuration of numerous, disparate molecules; and
3) the icicle does not exhibit function. The water molecules in the icicle do not move in any manner that represents work (the expending of energy in the transformation from one particular molecular configuration into another for a particular purpose i.e locomotion, catalysis, sensory perception, etc.
Really, we are talking apples and oranges here.
Getting back to the question, it is not the matter of the organism co-opting protein function, ie one protein is found doing more than one function in the organism.
Rather it is that one particular protein set is configured in a particular way in juxtaposition to another, albeit different protein set configured in its own particular arrangement, and this is done several times.
It seems more likely that if a bacterium over-produced a protein and had no where to store it, then the proteins would stick to the inner wall but in no particular pattern.
But that is not what we are observing. What we do observe is particular sets of proteins configured in particular patterns, and each protein configuration are themselves configured into a meta-pattern resulting in a functional organelle.
Are we to conclude that proteins only arrange themselves in circular patterns and that is why we see what we see in the b/f? But that is not the case AFAIK. So the question becomes ‘what causes proteins to align themselves in particular patterns and these patterns themselves arranged into meta-patterns (resulting in a pattern that begins to perform work) from a physics and chemistry POV?
Just what one expects from a pseudoscience that tries to have everything both ways. I wish that would sink in to those who carelessly suggest that “creationism” is always about “proving” a recent 6-day creation. That may be what most American (European too?) nonscientists may infer, and it may even be what most anti-evolution activists want them to infer (even if they don’t believe it themselves), but that’s an artifact of the preconceived notions of the audience, not necessarily anything inherent in the “creationist” arguments. Even the old-style YECs base their “evidences” almost exclusively on sought and fabricated “weaknesses” of “Darwinism,” not on finding evidence that just happens to converge on their particular interpretation of Genesis.
The ID scam has completed the strategy, allowing readers to infer anything they want, even if their conclusions contradict each other’s. If there’s any doubt that ID/creationism is pseudoscience…
Right. I’m trying to imagine a chemistry book being mostly about refuting phlogiston theory instead of supporting its own explanations. As crazy as that sounds, it would actually be far less crazy than the anti-evolution books because there really are weaknesses of phlogiston theory.
Yawn.….
No.
Behe claimed, rather clearly, that the flagellum was a deal breaker because getting there was impossible.
In order to refute that sweeping claim you don’t have to demonstrate that you’ve found the path, you just have to show that at least one path exists.
Once you prove it’s possible to grow a flagellum, an argument that relies exclusively on it being impossible just whithers away and dies.
Q.E.D.
You haven’t been paying attention. NCSE and similar organizations have been documenting the success of creationist movements not only in the English-speaking world but also in the German and Dutch-speaking world as well for years. I was wondering when someone like Nick would discover this Teutonic absurdity, and now he has:
For the exact same reason scientists discard all intuitions with no evidence. An intuition is fine, have them, they often lead to good discoveries, but you cannot produce a journal paper and expect classrooms to teach it unless you have more than circumstantial evidence and your ‘intuition’.
This is what the cDesign crowd fail at. They have all these amazing intuitions and ideas, but have no evidence to back it up and they still expect to get it put into classrooms. It’s perfectly acceptable in scientific circles to say ‘We don’t know.… yet’. To add ‘Therefore god must have done it’ isn’t scientific and shouldn’t be taught in schools.
I’m sure that most people would gladly accept creationist claims in the classroom, provided that there was peer-reviewed, robust and repeatable evidences for it. There isn’t.
Steve P -
1) What would be the exact physical nature of such a “program”?
2) What would be the exact physical nature of the receptor for the environmental cue?
3) Can you look for these “programs”? Can you identifiy them and show how they are “triggered”? That would seem like a remarkably easy way for you to turn science on its ear and win a Nobel prize. Recognition of your “great genius” at last. Precisely as you constantly and obsessively fantasize. What’s stopping you?
Please note that YOU are the one who is making this vague claim, so the onus is on YOU to provide support for it.
DO NOT REPLY TO HIS PART OF MY COMMENT WITHOUT FIRST ANSWERING ALL OF THE QUESTIONS ABOVE.
Because it is not an “intuition” at all, but a desperate, vague, meaningless rationalization of science denial, which no observations whatsoever point to.
Prove me wrong by providing good answers to my questions.
Give it up Steve, you are dead wrong. There is information in the linear sequence of nucleotides in exactly the same way that there is information in the linear sequence of letters and spaces in this sentence. If you disagree, then you will have no trouble providing a definition of information that excludes DNA now will you. If you don’t think that there is any information is words and sentences, then you might as well not post anything ever again. In fact, I would recommend just that.
If you agree that there is information in a sequence of DNA, then exactly what is your problem? Can you describe the processes of transcription and translation? Why don’t you think that this is enough information to direct the synthesis and assembly of a flagellum?
You are a completely incompetent boob as anyone can plainly see. No on cares what you think because of your astonishing ignorance. I notice you still haven’t answered the multiple choice question about the structure of DNA. Until you do, no one will taker you seriously. After that, I can make no promises.
Now get to readin them references if you want to have an intelligent conversation about flagella. They should clear up many of your misconceptions.
I really cannot get my mind around this one. I think Steve is just yanking chains. I think he is trying to see how bat shit insane he can get without some calling POE.
How is it possible to reconcile the phrase:
“Information is not physical…”
With the claim in the very next paragraph:
“Nucleotides contain no information. BUT the sequence of nucleotides does.”
So, I guess the sequence of nucleotides is not a physical entity! It’s not like, you know, a real physical molecule or anything! Man, this guy really doesn’t understand the structure of DNA. How in hell does he think that the linear sequence of amino acids in proteins is determined? Oh wait, that’s right, he thinks DNA is composed of amino acids, so I guess he couldn’t have a clue about that either.
Oh and by the way, individual nucleotides can contain information as well, such as the tautomeric form they are in or whether or not they are methylated. Now why am I not surprised that Stevie did not know that either? Oh well, what can you expect from someone who claims that the genome contains a program, but there is no information in DNA. If this jackass is serious, he is seriously deluded. I’m beginning to think that he is just plain nuts and off his meds.
This is what I love.
These guys are hilarious. They say yeah sure information is not physical, but er it is in fact physical(one of Elzinga’s science lessons I bet).
You know like, “Yeah sure it looks designed but you know, er it is in fact not designed”.
I’m sure you guys have a mantra you keep mumbling to yourself like “It is NOT designed. It is NOT designed. It is NOT designed”.
How about an “Oooooohhhhhmmm” to got with that?.
Ohhhh, but you guys got me right where you want me, huh? Coming out of the woodwork in droves now.
Rave on. Got my 3-D glasses on.
Well Stevie boy seems to have finally fallen off the deep end. Maybe he finally realized that everyone was just laughing at him. Maybe he realized that he had blown all of his imaginary credibility by repeatedly claiming that DNA was composed of amino acids. Or maybe he finally realized that physical objects can indeed contain information, it isn’t just some abstract idea in someones head. It takes intelligence to interpret information, it does not take any intelligence to create it.
One last time, just to be clear, There is information in the linear sequence of nucleotides in a molecule of DNA. This information is expressed through gene regulation and transcription and translation. The information is sufficient to control all of metabolism, development and reproduction, including assembly of the flagellum. There is no magic invisible hologram. There is no consciousness or intelligence required. Real scientists understand this very well. That is why we spent three billion dollars on the human genome project. Just one more thing that Steve doesn’t understand.
In any event, his record is still intact. He still hasn’t read a single paper, even though he challenged people repeatedly to provide him with the “information”. He still hasn’t learned a single thing, including the definition of information or the structure of DNA. He still hasn’t given anyone a single reason to take him seriously about, well, anything. FIne by me.
That about sums it up.
I’m not quite sure why you consider it to be some sort of victory when your opponents “concede” what they’ve been saying all along – that, for example, the genome encodes information. This point has not been in dispute throughout this discussion, except by one person … anyone remember who said this? (emphasis added)
So, when proven to be absolutely wrong about everything, Steve once again starts making shit up and laughing about how he was right all along. Well nobody else ever claimed that information could not be physical. JHFC, how in the hell does this guy think that CSI works? Like there isn’t any information in the markings on a bullet or the spatter pattern of blood! If the is no information in DNA, how in the world can it be used to identify suspects?
Perhaps this intellectually challenged primate is just trying to play word games. Perhaps he thinks that there is somehow an important distinction between claiming that DNA IS information and claiming that DNA CONTAINS information. BFD. Who cares? The point is that DNA does contain all of the information required in order to create an entire organism, including the flagella, heart, testes and anal sphincter. JHFC you can even clone animals using nothing but an enucleated egg and a transplanted nucleus. There is no magic invisible hologram. There is no semi intelligent designer watching over every flagellum in every bacteria. If the ass hat is so frickin intelligent, why the hell can’t she create a flagellum without having to supervise every time? Don’t sound very intelligent like to me.
Oh well, they say ignorance is bliss, so Steve must be the happiest guy on earth. I guess that’s what’s really important, not you know, reality. Maybe he will read those references soon. Yea, right.
Of course information can exist without matter. JHFC on a shingle, there is information in radio waves. There is information in the spectrum of the sun. There is information in the periodicity of a pulsar. How in the hell is this supposed to mean that there can be no information in DNA? How in the hell is this supposed to mean that the magic invisible hologram controls development, or the magic invisible designer puts flagella together?
Well at least you have to admit that no one else could get so much mileage out of refusing to define the term “information”. Way to go Stevie I. Wonder.
Thanks for linking to this particularly telling bit of dumbshittery, SWT:
Wow.
The stupid, it burns!
Yeah, it’s amazing how little life we’ve seen in the 99.999999… percent of the universe that we’ve never been to!
It appears that the only thing he is reading is this kind of projection.
Update