(Updated) Freshwater: Motion for reconsideration of sanctions denied; settlement still in limbo

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Judge Gregory Frost has denied a motion by John Freshwater and his attorney R. Kelly Hamilton that sought reconsideration of the sanctions imposed on them for noncompliance with discovery orders (report of the hearing). I’ll link to the ruling as soon as it goes up on NCSE’s site on the suit, but there are a few choice quotations from it below the fold. Judge Frost pretty firmly spanked Hamilton and Freshwater in his ruling.

Update: The ruling should go is now up on NCSE’s site on the case. later today Meanwhile, here’s a teaser, a candidate for the funniest footnote in a federal court ruling this year. It reads in its entirety

In response to a question by the Court, Attorney Hamilton explained that his wife mistakenly believed the Tesla coil was groceries and put it in the freezer at their home.

The Mount Vernon News now has the ruling up on its site here. It’s a good story, too.

Regarding the ‘new evidence’ claims:

A motion for reconsideration is “not intended to re-litigate issues previously considered by the Court or to present evidence that could have been raised earlier.” (citation omitted). The evidence currently before the Court could have been, and in most cases was, already presented to this Court or was available to be presented to this Court before it issued its Sanctions Order. That is, even if the Court accepts Attorney Hamilton’s assertion that he suffered two flat tires on the way to the first hearing, that does not explain why no request for a continuance of the hearing was made. Nor does it explain why no post hearing brief was filed by Attorney Hamilton to submit the evidence that was available to be presented at the last hearing. Even if, however, the Court were to agree that Freshwater and Attorney Hamilton possess “new evidence,” that evidence does nothing to persuade the Court that its previous decision was incorrect, as explained below.

On the credibility of testimony

The Court finds that Freshwater’s testimony, and the reasonable inferences drawn from his testimony, in several instances was incredible. For example, while on the witness stand Freshwater viewed his previous deposition testimony related to the Tesla coil that is at the heart of this case, which was read out loud to the Court by Attorney Mansfield. Freshwater clearly stated in that deposition testimony that he destroyed the Tesla coil by smashing it and then threw it in the trash. He speculated that the Tesla coil was in a garbage “landfill.” Freshwater then went on to testify, however, that he actually did not throw the Tesla coil in the trash, but instead gave it to Attorney Hamilton, whose wife in turn put it in the freezer. Freshwater made no attempt to explain this inconsistent testimony. Freshwater’s sworn testimony about the Tesla coil given on two separate occasions simply cannot both be true.

and

With regard to the testimony of Superintendent Short and Attorney Millstone, the Court found both witnesses forthcoming and believable. Short’s testimony was completely consistent with his affidavit testimony regarding the same issues. (See Doc. # 114-3.) The Court has no uncertainty whatsoever as to the truthfulness of the testimony of these two witnesses

and

And, it appears to the Court that the language utilized in Attorney Hamilton’s affidavit is carefully crafted to appear to state that he attached the affidavits to Exhibit 161 but does not actually state such. Moreover, although the affidavit does not state that Attorney Hamilton attached the affidavits to Exhibit 161, to the extent that the affidavit was meant to state such, the Court finds the testimony unbelievable.

The Court concludes that the evidence before it does nothing to render its Sanctions Order incorrect in any way.

The Court’s conclusion

Based on all of the evidence and briefing before it, the Court concludes that granting the Motion for Reconsideration would not prevent a manifest injustice. Indeed, the opposite. Based on Freshwater’s and Attorney Hamilton’s less than forthcoming behavior, it would be a manifest injustice for Plaintiffs to be required to pay their attorneys for work necessitated only by Freshwater’s and Hamilton’s misconduct.

IV. Conclusion

Based on the foregoing, the Court DENIES the Motion for Reconsideration filed by Defendant John Freshwater and Attorney R. Kelly Hamilton. (Doc. #07.)

Settlement imminent?

One other note of interest. In a footnote the judge wrote

1In their memorandum in opposition, Plaintiffs request judgement to be entered against Freshwater or for evidentiary inferences to be permitted against Freshwater at trial. That request, however, has been rendered moot by the settlement of this matter.

However, as of ten minutes ago the principals would say only that “There’s nothing we can say right now except that the parties have not signed a settlement agreement” (a direct on-the-record quote). It appears that the gag order is still in effect.

147 Comments

Thanks as always Richard. It certainly appears that Judge Frost has seen right through the Freshwater/Hamilton smoke screen. It appears that the Dennis family hold the upper hand here. Hopefully they will either be able to force Freshwater/Hamilton into a VERY favorable settlement (public apologies from Freshwater/Hamilton for all their lies would be a good start) or the Dennis family could refuse to settle and let Judge Frost impose the sanctions and continue the trial. I know a jury trial is always risky but I can not see any rational person could accept the Freshwater/Hamilton account of events.

Score for the bullshit detector behind the bench!

So the case may reach a private settlement, but Freshwater and Hamilton are still facing possible fines for noncompliance with the discovery orders regardless, have I got that right?
Legal procedures are a dark and muddy river for me.

Wheels said:

Score for the bullshit detector behind the bench!

So the case may reach a private settlement, but Freshwater and Hamilton are still facing possible fines for noncompliance with the discovery orders regardless, have I got that right?
Legal procedures are a dark and muddy river for me.

The sanctions include an order for Freshwater and Hamilton to pay $28K+ in attorney fees to the Dennises’ attorney(s). Freshwater offered an unrecorded lien on a parcel of land to attempt to satisfy that sanction; Hamilton offered nothing. That sanction would not be affected by a pre-trial settlement (or lack thereof) of the case.

Given the lack of sense shown so far by the two, I wouldn’t be surprised that the two might think they could win a court case.

I guess that Freshwater will now come out and say that he was innocent but had bad representation. At least he will be half right.

As I read it (IANAL), they are already supposed to the Dennis’ costs for their failure to produce discovery. All this decision does is confirm what the judge already decided: Freshwater and Hamilton must pay.

–W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

W. H. Heydt said:

As I read it (IANAL), they are already supposed to the Dennis’ costs for their failure to produce discovery. All this decision does is confirm what the judge already decided: Freshwater and Hamilton must pay.

–W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Yup.

Doesn’t this guy show every rare now and then? I’d think he was joking but it’s too belabored to be funny by anyone’s standards.

MrG said:

Doesn’t this guy show every rare now and then? I’d think he was joking but it’s too belabored to be funny by anyone’s standards.

Looks like that Dogmeat whatever troll.

If a settlement is reached, can Freshwater still be charged with perjury? Can he still be charged with contempt of court? Can he still be charged with obstruction of justice? Can he still claim that he was not represented by competent council? Can he still sign over his house, even if he has already signed it over to Hamilton? Can he still claim that he is a martyr? Can the settlement include anything more than monetary considerations, such as public apologies or jail time? Will he still get the message that what he did was wrong? Will everyone else get the message, or will they conclude that he got off lightly?

MrG said:

Doesn’t this guy show every rare now and then? I’d think he was joking but it’s too belabored to be funny by anyone’s standards.

I tossed it. Please don’t even comment on his rants. Thanks!

RBH said:

I tossed it. Please don’t even comment on his rants. Thanks!

OK. That was fast – PT is noted for its tolerance of trolls. Delete my responses if it’s no bother.

Just so you know, the preceding post was not sent by my BIL. This post is too far out even for him.

RBH said: The sanctions include an order for Freshwater and Hamilton to pay $28K+ in attorney fees to the Dennises’ attorney(s). Freshwater offered an unrecorded lien on a parcel of land to attempt to satisfy that sanction; Hamilton offered nothing. That sanction would not be affected by a pre-trial settlement (or lack thereof) of the case.

That’s the landlocked parcel you mentioned in the post earlier today, right? Are there any further details on that - what made them choose that particular section, is there access to it on public roads, etc? Because otherwise, having a $28k swatch of land doesn’t seem worth it if you can’t get to it.

If, after everything else goes down, the parcel is still surrounded by Freshwater’s (or Hamilton’s), is there any recourse for that?

W. H. Heydt said:

As I read it (IANAL), they are already supposed to the Dennis’ costs for their failure to produce discovery. All this decision does is confirm what the judge already decided: Freshwater and Hamilton must pay.

–W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Well, let’s recall that OJ Simpson was found guilty of wrongful death in civil court and ordered to pay $33.5 million to the Goldman family in 1997. Simpson is clearly not destitute, but if he’s paid any of that judgment yet, I haven’t heard about it. Hey, it’s only been 13 years.

I’m sure that as a lawyer, Hamilton is even more acutely aware of the nonpunishment for nonpayment than Simpson is.

Parse said:

RBH said: Freshwater offered an unrecorded lien on a parcel of land to attempt to satisfy that sanction; Hamilton offered nothing. That sanction would not be affected by a pre-trial settlement (or lack thereof) of the case.

That’s the landlocked parcel you mentioned in the post earlier today, right? Are there any further details on that - what made them choose that particular section, is there access to it on public roads, etc? Because otherwise, having a $28k swatch of land doesn’t seem worth it if you can’t get to it.

Right. I haven’t hunted up that parcel in the plat book online at the county auditor’s site, so I don’t (yet) know. I’ll do that later this evening.

If, after everything else goes down, the parcel is still surrounded by Freshwater’s (or Hamilton’s), is there any recourse for that?

I dunno.

DS said:

If a settlement is reached, can Freshwater still be charged with perjury? Can he still be charged with contempt of court? Can he still be charged with obstruction of justice? Can he still claim that he was not represented by competent council? Can he still sign over his house, even if he has already signed it over to Hamilton? Can he still claim that he is a martyr? Can the settlement include anything more than monetary considerations, such as public apologies or jail time? Will he still get the message that what he did was wrong? Will everyone else get the message, or will they conclude that he got off lightly?

Perjury…up to the judge. Obstruction of justice…probably up to the judge to make a recommendation to the US Attorney. Conflicting liwns…Has anything actually been filed showing a real lien? Martyr…he’ll probably claim that. Settlement…public apology…yeah, that could be in one, jail time…no. This is a civil case. Jail time only comes from criminal cases. Fundies will assume he was railroaded by the Forces of Evil ™. Everyone else will look at the waste of time money and judicial resources and brand him a Damned Fool.

–W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

“Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.”

Flint said:

W. H. Heydt said:

As I read it (IANAL), they are already supposed to the Dennis’ costs for their failure to produce discovery. All this decision does is confirm what the judge already decided: Freshwater and Hamilton must pay.

–W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Well, let’s recall that OJ Simpson was found guilty of wrongful death in civil court and ordered to pay $33.5 million to the Goldman family in 1997. Simpson is clearly not destitute, but if he’s paid any of that judgment yet, I haven’t heard about it. Hey, it’s only been 13 years.

I’m sure that as a lawyer, Hamilton is even more acutely aware of the nonpunishment for nonpayment than Simpson is.

Simpson’s estate was auctioned off an netted about $500K. It went to the Goldman family as trustee’s for the Simpson children. However, that’s been pretty much it.

And Hamilton has to practice law in central Ohio and will doubtless have to argue cases before this judge again in future.

Who in their right mind would want to deal with Freshwater especially with land? Freshie can sell his land all by his ownself. Cash only and move on.

MosesZD said:

Flint said:

W. H. Heydt said:

As I read it (IANAL), they are already supposed to the Dennis’ costs for their failure to produce discovery. All this decision does is confirm what the judge already decided: Freshwater and Hamilton must pay.

–W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Well, let’s recall that OJ Simpson was found guilty of wrongful death in civil court and ordered to pay $33.5 million to the Goldman family in 1997. Simpson is clearly not destitute, but if he’s paid any of that judgment yet, I haven’t heard about it. Hey, it’s only been 13 years.

I’m sure that as a lawyer, Hamilton is even more acutely aware of the nonpunishment for nonpayment than Simpson is.

Simpson’s estate was auctioned off an netted about $500K. It went to the Goldman family as trustee’s for the Simpson children. However, that’s been pretty much it.

Ooops. Sorry, brain just engaged. The money went to the Goldman estate. Not the Simpson kids, who are (were) in custody of the Browns, not the Goldmans. It’s been so long I got confused and didn’t keep the sordid details straight.

I suspect the big issue for Freshwater and Hamilton regarding the sanctions is that these are outside the scope of the insurance company’s liability. Unless the insurance company agrees to roll them into the settlement (which would be in the Dennis’s best interest, since it would mean they wouldn’t have to go asset-hunting to collect that portion of their legal bills).

This may be the last remaining issue before the final settlement is inked: figuring out how much (if any) Freshwater and Hamilton personally have to pony up for the settlement (and ensuring that they actually put up something of value).

I think Freshwater has burnt his future prospects. After a brief tour of fundy talk shows, he will return to teaching in a fundamentalist college, that’ll be it for him. Hamilton, on the other hand, will probably find himself a cozy spot at the DI or Thomas More within the next few years.

Divalent said:

This may be the last remaining issue before the final settlement is inked: figuring out how much (if any) Freshwater and Hamilton personally have to pony up for the settlement (and ensuring that they actually put up something of value).

Since the early 1970s I’ve been wondering when people will start recognizing that the public always pays for the messes these ID/creationists make. The school is already stuck with a big bill because of all the mud-wrestling that has gone on over this.

I hope we are beginning to see the time when these jerks start paying for the wreckage they cause with their sectarian wars on the rest of us.

There are some serious loopholes in the constitutionally guaranteed freedom of worship without fear of government interference. This has provided a safe haven for all sorts of charlatanism in fundamentalist religion that seems to be unique to the United States and threatens to spread worldwide.

People like Ken Ham are clearly aware of the lucrative market in the US for his kind of chicanery and profiteering off religious fear.

If any kind of accommodation of religion with the advance of science is to take place, these cranks need to be taken down and made aware that the rest of us are not going to pay their way.

Chris Lawson said:

I think Freshwater has burnt his future prospects. After a brief tour of fundy talk shows, he will return to teaching in a fundamentalist college, that’ll be it for him. Hamilton, on the other hand, will probably find himself a cozy spot at the DI or Thomas More within the next few years.

A private Christian middle or high school for Freshwater, maybe; he has only a bachelor’s degree. And Hamilton isn’t nearly smooth enough for the DI and his comments on David Barton’s radio show are beyond the pale for them. Thomas Moore is possible. At least his legal skills seem consistent with theirs.

Chris Lawson said:

I think Freshwater has burnt his future prospects. After a brief tour of fundy talk shows, he will return to teaching in a fundamentalist college, that’ll be it for him. Hamilton, on the other hand, will probably find himself a cozy spot at the DI or Thomas More within the next few years.

You may have hit the nail on the head. Freshwater may indeed get a position at a fundamentalist college as a martyr. They’ll probably buy him a new Tesla coil! (Then he can brand college students.)

He’ll be a celebrity on AIG and CMI. He’ll teach the ‘victory’ they won in the court for Creationism.

Hamilton will be doing the same at DI but he’ll call it a ‘victory’ for ID.

Trying to add a bit of levity, this decision reminds me of this video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16R4aeYBXww

I’ll have the lyrics to that song stuck in my head now, “Roll up the Bill of Rights and Whack Whack Whack ‘em on the head…”

No death, no martyrdom, dammit!

That’s my new motto for these would-be martyrs.

Freshwater will be able to move down to the Cincinnati area and become the Creation Museum’s martyr-in-residence.

He’ll probably do tesla coil cross demos for volunteers on their way out of the gift shop.

Ever since the judges’ flippant, ‘as strange as a tessla coil wrapped and dumped in a freezer’ comment, I have had absolutely no qualms about his ability to see the reality despite the lies.

In a settlement if a public apology could be wrangled that would be, to die for. It would be something, (like, ‘breathtaking innanity’) that you bring up and beat creationists around the head with time, and time again. You know; ‘Have you heard about the trials and tribulations of John Freshwater? No? He’s one of your lot. Yeah! Brain dead from the neck up, and prone to listen to self important yobbos with the intellectual credability of a boiled prune.’

RBH said:

How does something like that get brought? By the federal judge?

The judge can issue a “show cause” order sua sponte (that’s really, really bad schoolboy Latin for “on his own motion”), directing a party to show cause why it should not be sanctioned. BTW, that holds true for any possible sanction.

For a section 1927 motion, it is far more common for the opposing party to file the motion… although it’s still so rare that “far more common” probably doesn’t have any statistical significance.

RBH said:

A different take on it

Here’s a different take on the ruling by a local conservative Christian who has followed the Freshwater affair.  I’m particularly interested in the misapprehension embodied in this paragraph:

The Dennises state in their lawsuit that they are Christians. The Bibles and Ten Commandments that were in Freshwater’s classroom, if seen as religious articles, were from the Dennis’ own religion. In order to have standing, the Dennis’ legal interests have to have been invaded by the presence of these items.

Frost, nonetheless, granted the Dennis’ standing.

The misapprehension there seems to be that in order for one to have standing to complain about an unconstitutional endorsement of religion one must be unreligious.  What a strange notion!  Sam seems not to realize that the question is whether the Constitution is violated that counts, not who brings attention to that violation.

No, I think it’s more their view that, they own the trade mark and royalties to christian symbols in the community. So any display of them is profitable. And since you’re a christian, in a christian nation, how can you complain about the cross? If it’s a symbol of your religion, how can you be offended by it’s display?  They don’t recognize other parents’ desire for the right to control their kids introduction to those symbols.  Much less, sanctify that right; they own the real thing. How you not want the real thing?

BTW, I believe they indulge in the fundamental mindset, in part, by a desire to be good and valued, with their great inoperative is to save people from the eternity of torment justified by human nature, and only redeemed by human sacrifice. And in part a need to be empowered by command.  And while there are other parts, these two lead to a worldview that isn’t the sturdiest, brightest or clearest to begin with.

Then, you bring in people who mask, from themselves, their own assholery, so they can see themselves as good. Admittedly, because of their desire to be good, they’re good most of the time. It’s probably a trait we all hold to a greater or lesser degrees, and doesn’t require religion  Unfortunately, it can be taken to the degree, where they only perceive the fraction of their experience that will support their desire for own goodness in the now.  When confronted with two conflicting self-statements, they can honestly believe both are false. Because, the good person they are, now it’s a different story. Before you can keep them from lying to you, you got stop them from lying to themselves.  And the greater their assholery and need for goodness, the harder that is. This trait doesn’t mix well with the fundamental mind set, but the two are often found together. 

I think these guys honestly believe their own goodness, through the lord, and reality is a conspiracy against them. 

Juicyheart remarked

They don’t recognize other parents’ desire for the right to control their kids introduction to those symbols.

Darcy Miller, a mother, testified during the hearing that when parental permission slips were required for Fellowship of Christian Athletes, attendance dropped drastically. She called that “heart breaking.” As I said when I wrote about that testimony:

I myself found it interesting that when parents were given some control over the religious influences their children were exposed to in the context of the school, they opted out of the apparently mainly fundamentalist views espoused at FCA. And it was also interesting that Miller apparently didn’t think that was a good thing.

RBH said:

Um, that’s The Sun, whose front page story in the same issue is about a giant UFO spotted over Manchester in 1995. It’s on the same journalistic level as WorldNutDaily.

It wasn’t just in the Sun. It was also covered elsewhere. And, a dead baby is pretty solid evidence, compared to a UFO sighting.

Richard, did you ever hear why Freshwater’s previous attorneys withdrew?

nmgirl said:

Richard, did you ever hear why Freshwater’s previous attorneys withdrew?

In their request to withdraw from representation they said only that “On April 23, 2010 circumstances arose which prevent Robert H. Stoffers, Jason R. Deschler and Mazanec, Raskin, Ryder & Keller, Co., L.P.A. from continuing to represent Defendant Freshwater in the within case in accordance with Ohio Rules of Professional Conduct.”

In a radio interview Freshwater said that he threatened them with a malpractice suit and “fired” them. Since they were retained by the insurance company to defend Freshwater, not by Freshwater himself, that seems a little exaggerated.

There are rumors around, of course, but that’s all the information that’s out in public about it.

RBH

I’d like to take the the opportunity, along with the many before me, to thank you for taking so much of your time to accurately reflect the facts in all three of the on-going Freshwater sagas.

As an added bonus, when I first started following your site, I must admit that many of your other articles were quite “over my head,” but that, in time, I’m actually starting to comprehend information previously not studied in the past. I guess I want to thank you, too, for increasing my learning curve in the area of science over the last few years.

Kudos to you, sir.

Miriam St. Jean said: As an added bonus, when I first started following your site, I must admit that many of your other articles were quite “over my head,” but that, in time, I’m actually starting to comprehend information previously not studied in the past. I guess I want to thank you, too, for increasing my learning curve in the area of science over the last few years.

Thanks, but let me call attention to the fact that those other articles are for the most part by other contributors to the Thumb. We have a fair-sized group of contributors which some day will be listed on the site (Burt? Are you there?)

The local news is reporting that Freshwater and Hamilton are getting overwhelmed with all the work on the 3 different legal matters going on now. The article is headed “Freshwater asks for time” which I for one would like to see him get (but not in the sense he and Hamilton are asking for in the artilce). Here’s the link. http://www.mountvernonnews.com/loca[…]sks-for-time

CMB said:

The local news is reporting that Freshwater and Hamilton are getting overwhelmed with all the work on the 3 different legal matters going on now. The article is headed “Freshwater asks for time” which I for one would like to see him get (but not in the sense he and Hamilton are asking for in the artilce). Here’s the link. http://www.mountvernonnews.com/loca[…]sks-for-time

From that article:

Because of the lack of time to properly prepare documents, Hamilton has asked the Judge Gregory Frost to deny the board’s request to compel Hamilton to respond to discovery requests and to impose sanctions for noncompliance as well as extend his response time.

These jokers piled a ton of crap on the table that they now have to answer for, and now they don’t want to answer for it.

The irony of this is delicious. It is exactly what would happen to any teacher if ID/creationists were allowed to fill the classroom with crap that any teacher would then have to deal with.

If I were the judge, I wouldn’t give Freshwater and Hamilton any more extensions or allow any more of their delaying tactics.

CMB said:

The local news is reporting that Freshwater and Hamilton are getting overwhelmed with all the work on the 3 different legal matters going on now. The article is headed “Freshwater asks for time” which I for one would like to see him get (but not in the sense he and Hamilton are asking for in the artilce). Here’s the link. http://www.mountvernonnews.com/loca[…]sks-for-time

Yup. That came in Hamilton’s response to the defendants’ request for a motion to compel the Freshwaters to comply with discovery demands in the suit they brought against ths Board of Education and some administrators.

The situation is similar to that which recently brought sanctions on Freshwater and Hamilton in Doe v. Mount Vernon BOE, where the judge sanctioned them for noncompliance with discovery demands and failure to comply with a granted motion to compel. The same script is being played out in Freshwater v. Mount Vernon BOE, et al.

In his response Hamilton wrote

But the undersigned attests I simply cannot keep up with the demands of both cases as I have already turned away other paying clients and cannot budget another minute in the day. The undersigned [Hamilton] does not have an issue with balancing time but rather simply not enough time in each day nor stamina to proceed any faster.

He asked that the request for a motion to compel be denied and that he be given additional time to respond.

RBH said: The situation is similar to that which recently brought sanctions on Freshwater and Hamilton in Doe v. Mount Vernon BOE, where the judge sanctioned them for noncompliance with discovery demands and failure to comply with a granted motion to compel. The same script is being played out in Freshwater v. Mount Vernon BOE, et al.

Hmmm…I would think that the standard practice of a responsible lawyer in such a situation would be to hire more help or, barring that possibility, recommend his client seek other counsel.

But its par for the course. Hamilton’s Ohio seems to be severely lacking in not only buses, cabs, and competent computer repairmen, but now lawyers too.

RBH quoting a local conservative christian: In order to have standing, the Dennis’ legal interests have to have been invaded by the presence of these items.

I don’t see any paradox in a christian feeling invaded or injured by some unwanted christian display. As a chemist, I can say without hesitation that if my neighbor put a neon-lit 50’ x 50’ billboard of the periodic table on his roof, I’d be upset. Its not just content but context of a display that matters - don’t these folks get that?

So basically Freshwater, and Hamilton are requesting a time-out in order to generate further evasions reegarding non-compliance with legitimate discovery motions while not being penalised? Surely Freshwater at least must be aware that “the dog ate my homework” is not going to fly? Also annoying the same judge who already thinks you are a lying little toad doesn’t seem to me like a sound legal tactic, at this rate they just might get longer then Hovind.

CMB said:

The local news is reporting that Freshwater and Hamilton are getting overwhelmed with all the work on the 3 different legal matters going on now. The article is headed “Freshwater asks for time” which I for one would like to see him get (but not in the sense he and Hamilton are asking for in the artilce). Here’s the link. http://www.mountvernonnews.com/loca[…]sks-for-time

Well either they actually need more time to fabricate documents, or they have been sitting on their butts for the last two years. I wouldn’t give them one minute more to make up any more lies. They were already caught lying several times. Can’t they just make up more lies as they go a long? Why do they need more time to do that? Why give them more time to do that? All they have to do is accept the dismissal, admit what they did was wrong and all of the court business will go away. Why should that be so hard for people who already know they are going to lose anyway?

DS said:

CMB said:

The local news is reporting that Freshwater and Hamilton are getting overwhelmed with all the work on the 3 different legal matters going on now. The article is headed “Freshwater asks for time” which I for one would like to see him get (but not in the sense he and Hamilton are asking for in the artilce). Here’s the link. http://www.mountvernonnews.com/loca[…]sks-for-time

Well either they actually need more time to fabricate documents, or they have been sitting on their butts for the last two years. I wouldn’t give them one minute more to make up any more lies. They were already caught lying several times. Can’t they just make up more lies as they go a long? Why do they need more time to do that? Why give them more time to do that? All they have to do is accept the dismissal, admit what they did was wrong and all of the court business will go away. Why should that be so hard for people who already know they are going to lose anyway?

And lets not forget that 2 of the 3 actions were initiated by Freshwater & Hamilton.

CMB wrote:

And lets not forget that 2 of the 3 actions were initiated by Freshwater & Hamilton.

Exactly. How can they not be ready to go ahead with a case they themselves initiated? What exactly are they supposed to need more time for? What exactly do they need to go over that they did not go over at least twice already?

It seems as though the only thing they can hope to accomplish now is to not get caught in their web of lies and deceit until after the school year starts. Perhaps then Freshwater will claim that he is entitled to another full year of salary and full retirement benefits. News flash for you John, if you are sent to jail for perjury, that won’t matter any more. I hear they have an excellent retirement plan.

I really think that this is going to hurt Hamilton as much as Freshwater.

I have been wondering about the billing records for apparently disappearing affidavits. I occurred to me that if Hamilton had billed Freshwater for everything he owned, he could claim that Freshwater had no assets avialable to pay other fees, or fines, or settlements. They might think that with God on their side, that this would merely be “insurance.” But, if there was no work done, the billing is fraud. And if our dynamic duo are dumped into the garbage (along with Freshwater’s five armfuls of crap), and they lose their cases- Hamilton is in worse trouble than Freshwater.

These guys could be in very bad trouble.

I wonder if they could share a cell with Kent Hovind?

Here are the posted comments on the discussion page that comes along with the article reporting Hamilton’s request for more time:

**************

#1 Tough s@#%.

#2 ditto

#3 well said

can you believe he’s pulling the same stunts in this federal case he pulled in the last; the same stunts which cost him and his attorney $28,000.00?

is ANYONE still taking this guy seriously?

#4 If he doesn’t have the necissay (sic) time to represent Freshwater adequately, he should turn some of the responsibilities over to another attorney who does. This is not the courts problem, this is Freshwaters (sic) and Hamiltons (sic) problem. If they’re not willing to do that, then they should drop their lawsuit.

**************

It’s a small sample, I know, but it supports what I’ve thought would happen eventually. Local public sentiment is turning ugly and (IMO) decidedly anti-Freshwater.

As a local I have run into Freshwater in Mount Vernon several times in the past two years, and he looks more and more haggard each time. I do feel sorry for the man and for the financial burden he is laying on his family…then I think about my kids and what they will have to do without because the school district is being forced to pay for defending their position in this fiasco.

Minor clarification, but in his motion Hamilton does not refer to burden of 3 cases, but only 2 (the administrative hearing and his suit against the board), despite what the newspaper article states.

BTW, wasn’t it Freshwater (and Hamilton) who dragged out the administrative hearing by, among other things, exercising his prerogative not have sessions when school was out, for no good reason other than, apparently, he could? I mean, but for those delays, the administrative hearing would have been over long ago, leaving them both free to work full time on the remaining action. And then there is the time spent dealing with the motion to compel, and motion for sanctions, and motion for reconsideration of sanctions in the Doe v Freshwater, which they brought upon themselves by engaging in tactics that earned them sanctions (and arguably sapped Freshwater of whatever remaining the ability he had to pay for more legal help in this case).

It would appear that Hamilton probably realizes he is now working for Freshwater for free, as otherwise there really is no good reason to not hire more help to avoid another set of punitive sanctions. Did the board make counter claims for damages in their case that would prevent Freshwater/hamilton from unilaterally cutting their losses and just dismissing the action?

Somewhere in this Freshwater thread was a short discussion of Freshwater’s choice of fellow fundie Hamilton as his legal representative. Hamilton is a fundamentalist Christian therefore he must be a good man of sterling character may have been Freshwater’s fundie logic.

I was discussing this with a friend a couple of weeks ago. Today she alerted me that Freshwater supporter Coach Dave had recently interviewed one Neal Horsley on his radio show. She suggested that I google this Horsley character and prepare to be shocked. I had never heard of Horsley so I researched him.

Wow. Wow. Horsley is the most extreme fundie nutcase ever. He makes Kent Hovind and Peter LaBarbera appear moderate.

In an interview with Alan Colmes, Horsley bragged about the debauched lifestyle he led before his prison cell conversion. Drugs, excessive drinking and bestiality were among the vices he indulged in. Yep, that’s right…bestiality. According to Horsley, “if you grow up on a farm in Georgia, your first girlfriend is a mule.” “If it’s warm and it’s damp and it vibrates you might in fact have sex with it”, Horsley told Alan Colmes.

After Horsley came to Jesus, he became a fierce anti-abortionist. His website “Nuremburg Files” listed the names and addresses of all doctors performing abortions in the United States. The site was used by James Charles Kopp to track down and kill Buffalo doctor Barnett Slepian in 1998.

Horsley ran for governor of Georgia last year. His platform at a secessionist brought him few votes. What really got him some attention were his comments in an interview where ““he indicated he’d kill his own son to dissolve the United States (in an effort to overturn Roe v. Wade). Asked if he was ready to sacrifice his own son in a national insurrection, Horsley recounts a fight with his son where he almost killed him. “I was one foot from killing my own son, or hurting him really, really bad,” Horsley told Krider. “If he would have attacked me again, I would have stuck him. Or cut him or sliced him or done something to stop him. That’s the point, your hypothetical has literally already been worked out with me, and that’s what makes me different from the other candidates for Governor.””

Different? That’s an understatement if I’ve ever heard one.

I have no idea whether or not Coach Dave had any knowledge of Horsley’s background before he interviewed him on the subject of abortion. Maybe he just assumed that Horsley, being a fundamentalist Christian, is a good solid God-fearing man. Then again, given some of the crackpots that Coach Dave has interviewed, I’d say that his bar is set a low as it can go when it comes to the character and sanity of his guests.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Horsley’s son is a an Army Sergeant.

Mary said:

Somewhere in this Freshwater thread was a short discussion of Freshwater’s choice of fellow fundie Hamilton as his legal representative. Hamilton is a fundamentalist Christian therefore he must be a good man of sterling character may have been Freshwater’s fundie logic.

Something like that occurred in Hamilton’s questioning of Freshwater in the administrative hearing, though the assurance went the other way. According to the questioning they talked for nearly an hour before Hamilton took the case. Hamilton wanted to satisfy himself that Freshwater’s theology wasn’t strange. However, I think they already knew each other at least casually. Somewhere on the web there’s a picture of Hamilton and Freshwater picketing an abortion clinic together that I think predates their professional association. I’ll look around for it later.

And it wouldn’t amaze me at all to learn that Daubenmire knows exactly what kind of a loon Horsley is. Daubenmire is not very tightly wrapped himself.

Any new word on settlement? New trial date? Freshwater turning blue from holding his breath? Hamilton dead of apoplexy from the rulings?

–W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

W. H. Heydt said:

Any new word on settlement? New trial date? Freshwater turning blue from holding his breath? Hamilton dead of apoplexy from the rulings?

–W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Not a thing going on judging ftom what people are willing to say on the record, though I’m sure settlement talks are still in progress. No new trial date has yet been set.

The next significant events are (a) the due date for summary briefs in the administrative hearing is August 13, after two extensions at Hamilton’s request, and (b) the federal judge’s ruling on Hamilton’s request for more time to respond to a motion to compel compliance with discovery in Freshwater v. Mount Vernon BOE et al.. He filed that request August 3, and Judge Frost has been prompt in his rulings so I expect that this week.

At a party last night an attorney friend of mine who is familiar with the case and who has argued cases in Judge Frost’s Court suggested to me that it’s very unlikely that Frost will grant an extension. If that happens, if the judge doesn’t give Hamilton an extension and grants the motion to compel, we’d be following the same script in Freshwater v. Mount Vernon BOE et al. that led to sanctions being imposed on Hamilton and Freshwater in Doe v. Mount Vernon BOE et al. Maybe history does repeat itself!

Just out of curiousity, is there any itemized comparison between, the list of items returned to Freshwater by Short, the items the Dennises asked for in discovery but were not produced by Freshwater, and the items Freshwater and Hamilton turned over to the police from the dumpster? I’d wager they’d over lap quite a bit, and I’d like to know if I’d lose that wager or not.

Juicyheart said:

Just out of curiousity, is there any itemized comparison between, the list of items returned to Freshwater by Short, the items the Dennises asked for in discovery but were not produced by Freshwater, and the items Freshwater and Hamilton turned over to the police from the dumpster? I’d wager they’d over lap quite a bit, and I’d like to know if I’d lose that wager or not.

I don’t know if anyone has made those comparisons. I haven’t, for sure.

From the SANS Newsletter on how to recover a water soaked laptop. This case covers salt water in particular but can be extended to Mr. Hamilton’s case:

FEEDBACK ON DATA RECOVERY FROM SALT WATER IMMERSED DEVICES In NewsBites Volume 12, Number 63 we asked for feedback on the data recovery process for devices that have been immersed in salt water. Here is some of the information that you shared with us:

Tom McGrane suggests: For electronics in general, once they’re in water for any length of time you need to leave them in water until they can be properly cleaned and dried, especially if it was salt water. As soon as air hits the wet metal parts corrosion really takes off. Much slower while under water. Do remove any batteries.

Leaving it in saltwater is better than out in the air, but if you can move it to fresh water that’s better–the more water the better to dilute the salt. Letting fresh water flow through the container would be good.

There are companies that do electronics cleaning where they’ll submerge the appropriate parts in special cleaning fluid. Often used with smoke damaged stuff, but would probably work with water damage, too.

For quick dunks, like dropping a cell phone into a pond or toilet, it makes sense to quickly remove it, pull the battery to reduce possible damage, open it up in any easy way and shake out as much water as possible, then if you can, put it in a bag of rice and leave in a warm place to dry. Or just open and set up however seems logical to allow moisture to drain out. Leave it to dry as long as practical before applying power again. Use a fan to blow air through it.

I’ve lived on the Alaskan coast and it’s often surprising what can be rescued when live-aboard boats have taken on water if you keep stuff away from air.

Rob Blader did some research and found moisture removing bags: http://www.rei.com/product/793223 And then did further research and found a similar thread on the High Tech Crime Consortium Listserv:

“I used the NoWrite Hard Drive Evidence case, filled it with silica bags, closed the case and left it in a warm place. One day, the phone was dry inside and out.”

“ I’ve had good luck so far just removing the battery and putting the items in a bag of rice for a couple of days. Worked on a cell phone left on the ground overnight in the rain, and a cell phone dropped in the dog’s water bowl.”

We do not think we have enough definitive information for a SCORE checklist yet. If you have experience with recovering data from devices that have been exposed to salt water, please drop [Enable javascript to see this email address.] a note. Thanks!

********************************************************************** The Editorial Board of SANS NewsBites

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This page contains a single entry by Richard B. Hoppe published on August 2, 2010 4:37 PM.

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