SIX Years Already? Merry Kitzmas!

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Can you believe it’s been SIX YEARS since Judge Jones issued a devastating anti-“Intelligent Design” ruling?

Ah, the memories of Kitzmas past. Remember “Waterloo in Dover”? “Cdesign proponentsists.”? The “breathtaking inanity of the Board’s decision”?

Merry Kitzmas, everyone!

81 Comments

(edited from my Talk.Origins post)

Merry Kitzmas, evolution-deniers!

It’s hard to believe but will be 6 years since an “activist judge” banned creationism, ID, and all other assorted anti-evolution arguments from every outlet that you counted on - the Internet, books, films, private school non-science classes, etc.

You may not believe me, but I feel your pain. So I’m actually going to break the law and give you a Kitzmas present that will have you jumping for joy. I wanted to find as many anti-evolution arguments in one place as possible for you to enjoy all year round. As a bonus, since you advocate “critical analysis,” your Kitzmas present includes a critical analysis of all those arguments.

Wait, there’s more! I pulled some strings so that if you want to use this Kitzmas present as “supplemental material” in private school non-science classes, you will be granted the “academic freedom” to do so.

Yes, if only “Darwinists” could be forced to tell the truth in court. Why then we’d.….….…find out officially what a corrupt and dishonest sham ID is (more importantly, the rest of the world that pays far less attention to creationism than we do would learn this).

Glen Davidson

Merry Kitzmas!

I remember reading the transcripts of the trial as it was going on and the reports by the NCSE and the most wonderful Lauri Lebo (buy her book!)

Those were heady days and when Jones’ decision came out it was like chum in the water, such a frenzy of blog postings, analysis and, ultimately, celebration.

I think we should thank Expert Witness Dr. M. Behe without whom we wouldn’t have the clarification that ID is like astrology. Thanks, Mikey, that was great.

And, second, I would like to thank Dr. Dr. Willie D. who provides such insightful testimony on the nature of the theory of ID, and just nailed it on the improbability of Darwinian whatsis thingies …

Oh, wait, … Dr. Dr. went AWOL after he witnessed Barbara Forrests deposition. Probably the smartest thing he’s ever done, all things considered!

Six years, has it been that long? I believe Luskin is still writing refutations, he only got to the immune system and evolution-of-new-genes evidence in the last year or two…

That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

Merry Kitzmas everyone! Damn, I forgot it was today.

The impact of the trial is best visualized by google trends or insight.

A Masked Panda said:

The impact of the trial is best visualized by google trends or insight.

Those are awesome!

Gosh. By now, Kitzmiller has got to be one of the most fisked court decision (and ole Judge Jonesy one of the most fisked judicial activists) in recent American jurisprudence. Kitzmiller is now stuck with multiple refutations from multiple angles. Some are online, some made it into law journals, but there’s plenty of good anti-Kitzmiller refutations on the table, that’s for sure.

DeWolf, West, and Luskin said it best in a 2007 Montana Law Review article: “Judge Jones’s opinion will serve future judges only with an example of how NOT to analyze the issues that were presented to him.”

(For more information, see the following article, which includes a link to the MLR article: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/1[…]r027721.html )

At any rate, the Kitzmiller Decision been sliced and diced so thoroughly, there’s not much chance of it recovering all the ground that it has lost.

Furthermore, in six years, NO school board or governmental entity has repeated the same specific, egregrious legal mistake that the Dover School Board stubbornly insisted on making, (against the clear public warnings of ID advocates), to its own detriment.

Nor was there ever any need to make any such mistake anyway, as Texas and Louisiana have very effectively demonstrated recently.

****

Did Kitzmiller put an end to ID? Hardly. ID has only spread further and further in the past six years. Notice that Gary Hurd said “officially infiltrate” but carefully remained stone-silent about unofficial infiltration. Mustn’t be a Debbie Downer, eh?

Consider well: In 2009, Darwin’s 150th birthday, only a few years after all the Kitzmiller Decision media hype, the majority of the American people clearly SUPPORTED intelligent design (Zogby Poll, 1053 likely voters, margin of error +/- 3.1 percentage points):

Statement A: The development of life came about through an unguided process of random mutations and natural selection.

Statement B: The development of life was guided by intelligent design.

Statement A: 33%

Statement B: 52%

Neither: 7%

Other/Not sure: 8

That should tell you something. Furthermore, in 2011, PandasThumb is now monitoring ID activity on a WEEKLY basis, week in week out (via Jack Scanlan’s blogs). Putting it all together, that should give you some idea of how much ID is clearly worrying the evolutionist community, and how much ID has spread further and further in its national influence over the past six years.

And ID efforts have helped create a national climate in which an overwhelming public majority of Americans support the presentation of both strengths AND weaknesses of evolution whenever the topic is presented in the public schools. ( http://www.discovery.org/a/11631 )

****

So, in light of these facts, what is Kitzmiller’s current value? Well, there’s always “Nostalgia” value, like the 15-cent McDonald’s hamburger, or the 25-cent-a-gallon gasoline pump. It’s always fun to be able to say, “Hey, I was there when…” The good ole days, aye?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spring[…]/3924490018/

****

So by all means, celebrate Kitzmiller. Pour a glass of Welch’s Sparkling Grape Juice. Toast with good friends.

Just remember that the “good ole days” are long, long gone, if you’re an evolutionist.

Kitzmiller is NOT officially defeated, nor is it dead.

But unofficially…it’s caged and declawed and defanged, not to mention a coupla bullet holes in the side.

So, enjoy whatever’s left of it, baby. Party Hearty!!

FL

As FL always manages to demonstrate by his very existence; there can never be a lower bound to the IQ scale.

I remember reading the decision here as a interested observer and thinking, ‘oh my, get over to UD quick they’ll be ropeable!’ They were; angry young campers to a man, with the egregious Dembsky heading off to make fart jokes.

Yes FL, the decision has been torn to shreads at, AIG, UD and a vast number of other footstomping, kindergarden, echochambers. Check out the husk that is UD these days and you can see the depths to which they have been reduced.

Doc Bill remembers Dembsky running like a scared child upon being confronted by the indefatigable Barbara F, so do I. But do you remember his ‘backdoor’ antics at trying to have his testimony read into evidence as an ‘absent’ expert witness? The mighty judge treated the twit with the contempt he deserved and said if he wants to say something, step up and say it. William’s answer was the answer John Cleese’s character gave in the “Holy Grail”; ‘Run Awaaaaay!!’

robert van bakel said:

I remember reading the decision here as a interested observer and thinking, ‘oh my, get over to UD quick they’ll be ropeable!’ They were; angry young campers to a man, with the egregious Dembsky heading off to make fart jokes.

Yes FL, the decision has been torn to shreads at, AIG, UD and a vast number of other footstomping, kindergarden, echochambers. Check out the husk that is UD these days and you can see the depths to which they have been reduced.

Doc Bill remembers Dembsky running like a scared child upon being confronted by the indefatigable Barbara F, so do I. But do you remember his ‘backdoor’ antics at trying to have his testimony read into evidence as an ‘absent’ expert witness? The mighty judge treated the twit with the contempt he deserved and said if he wants to say something, step up and say it. William’s answer was the answer John Cleese’s character gave in the “Holy Grail”; ‘Run Awaaaaay!!’

That was actually Graham Chapman, as Arthur, when the French started heaving cows at them.

FL’s last post truly is testimony to his inability - actually, maliciously demented incompetence - to parse reality. Creationism lost a hundred or more years ago on the rational front. It held the line for another fifty years on nothing but wind and ignorance, but as soon as the courts began comparing its claims with the First Amendment, it was gone for all money. The rest followed with the certainty of a falling rock.

Maybe there’s going to be another court fight sometime over the “supplementary materials” and the “teach other explanations” nonsense. Some fool will be sufficiently crazy and sufficiently poorly supervised to try it on. That fool, and the district, will be sued, and will lose big-time. They’ll pay heavily to be told, “No, you can’t teach religion as science,” all over again.

They won’t believe it, of course. That would require an ability to parse reality.

https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/[…]vtiF0BBqF10Q said:

The impact of the trial is best visualized by google trends or insight.

I never knew about those resources. Those graphs confirm my experience in searching for news about ID. And close to half of the Google hits these days are about some company’s PR campaign about their new intelligently designed product. Except for a few crazy legislators or presidential candidates, ID just doesn’t make the news any more. (In preview mode the quote is attributed to something weird, but it’s from Masked Panda.)

Except for a few crazy legislators or presidential candidates, ID just doesn’t make the news any more.

What, they don’t report all of the scientific advances produced by ID theory? …oh, right.

I think that’s really one of ID’s greatest assets over the short run, and its Achilles’ heel over the long run. Most creationism is just promising that it can show that science agrees with the Bible (miserable results, yet many creationists are convinced), while ID claims to be a rival science.

And they never do science with it. At best, IDists will (rarely) do some evolutionary science in order to call evolution into question, while neglecting to do any “ID based” science.

They can’t convincingly claim ID to be science without doing any research based on it, at least not beyond the ranks of the faithful believers.

Glen Davidson

FL Wrote:

That should tell you something.

It tells me is that it’s a pathetic attempt to pretend that you have a majority, by phrasing the question to include some of the most vocal critics of the ID/creationism scam, namely theistic evolutionists, along with flat earthers and people who can’t even spell “evolution.”

When people actually take the time to see what a hopeless mess of mutually-contradictory, flatly falsified accounts of “what happened when,” increasingly covered up with a policy of “don’t ask, don’t tell,” and wrapped in a bizarre paranoia that mainstream science is conspiring to replace God with another Hitler, very few buy into the scam. So it’s no surprise that these days the scam artists only want students to learn long-refuted misrepresentations of evolution peddled as “critical analyis,” while censoring the refutations, and conveniently exempting the “positive” mutually-contradictory creationist accounts from a real critical analysis.

Actually Robert, what I remember best about William Dembski regarding the Kitzmiller trial is this:

http://www.designinference.com/docu[…]_Dembski.pdf

…and I made myself a copy for future use, should I ever find myself in a discussion with somebody who likes to quote Forrest, Padian, and others. It’s not a be-all and end-all, but the information comes in quite handy, I’ve noticed. Judge Jones, of course, wasn’t able to deal with it. There was a lot of stuff he wasn’t able to deal with.

****

Honestly? In hindsight, I think one of the great disadvantages for you evolutionist guys was that you actually WON the Dover trial.

You guys got so astonishingly lazy afterwards (not just here but all evolution outlets), you got to the point where you mindlessly started saying “Dover”, “Kitzmiller”, or “Cdesign” like a robotic Magic Mantra. “See? Here’s Dover; discussion over!”

Meanwhile, your opposition kept on examining and reexamining Jones’ decision, the arguments used, and the assumptions involved. They kept checking things out. They made sure that all your expert testimonies (Forrest, Padian, Miller) were properly and minutely responded to…and that the critiques were in writing and accessible to the public.

Issues like the Kitzmiller attorney trying to make it look as if Behe endorsed astrology as modern science, have been explained, resolved, neutralized by now.

In other words, a lot of pro-ID groundwork was laid, not just during the trial, but afterwards, even while evolutionists kept on celebrating and parroting the Magic Mantra. At this time, every Kitzmiller angle from “Cdesign…” to “Is ID religious…” has been thoroughly covered. The groundwork has been done.

****

You guys won the trial and with it, you won a lot of media and cultural influence. For a while.

But Kitzmiller was receiving serious dissection and fisking virtually before the ink was dry, and now, six years later, Kitzmiller’s media and cultural influence–its primary advantage–is on a very steep wane. The people, ultimately, didn’t buy into it.

FL

FL, I have to hand it to you, you’re giving Baghdad Bob a run for the ‘most amusing PR’ award in my book.

In other words, a lot of pro-ID groundwork was laid, not just during the trial, but afterwards, even while evolutionists kept on celebrating and parroting the Magic Mantra.

Groundwork for what? Nobody is trying to teach ID. If the fisking is complete, what are you waiting for?

At this time, every Kitzmiller angle from “Cdesign…” to “Is ID religious…” has been thoroughly covered.

1. I am unfamiliar with the ‘thorough coverage’ surrounding the appearance of cdesign proponentists in an interim draft of OPAP. Perhaps you could point me to the ID community’s explanation for how it got there.

2. It made me snort soda out my nose to hear you wax on about how thoroughly you guys analyzed and understood the arguments of Kitzmiller, like cdesign proponentists. Thank you for that. Your accuracy leaves me speechless with amazement.

FL said:

The groundwork has been done.

Actually, it hasn’t. There is no science whatsoever in ID/creationism. It is all pseudo-science to the core. It has been that way since Henry Morris and Duane Gish.

But you wouldn’t know that, having dramatically flunked – on this very website - every opportunity to demonstrate even the most basic understanding of the most elementary concepts in science (we haven’t forgotten how you pretend to “stay in the game” after waiting for answers you yourself can’t provide; and we will continue to rub your face in it).

Every ID/creationist troll and everybody over at UD, the DI, AiG, and the ICR are just as badly misinformed about science as you are. What all of you believe you know about real science is dead wrong; and it is no longer possible for any of you to learn.

And by the way, nobody is going to continue to waste time attempt to teach you anything. Taunting gets you nothing but derision.

Speaking of “groundwork” can anyone tell me whether the Biologic Institute is an actual laboratory or whether it’s simply a web site?

So, tell us, FL, what sort of pro-Intelligent Design research, and how many pro-Intelligent Design papers has the Discovery Institute put out since Dover? What “ground work” was laid out in Dover that will help Intelligent Design?

Oh, wait, they’ve done nothing, and Dover helped exposed Intelligent Design as another Big Lie For Jesus.

Les Lane said:

Speaking of “groundwork” can anyone tell me whether the Biologic Institute is an actual laboratory or whether it’s simply a web site?

Better yet, can anyone tell me what sort of science they do at the Discovery Institute, or should we assume that it’s nothing but a Creationist propaganda mill?

FL blathers thus: “Actually Robert, what I remember best about William Dembski regarding the Kitzmiller trial is this:

http://www.designinference.com/docu[…]_Dembski.pdf “

I love that document too. In legal terms, that’s called “unsworn inadmissible hearsay.” It’s one of my favorite Kitzmiller documents.

Dembski didn’t have the guts to actually stand up, get sworn in and testify under penalty of perjury. At least Behe made the effort and look where it got him.

Kitzmiller, where ID finally had the opportunity to get a level playing field where both sides could testify under penalty of perjury.

ID forgot that means you have to tell the truth.

sealawr said: Dembski didn’t have the guts to actually stand up, get sworn in and testify under penalty of perjury. At least Behe made the effort and look where it got him.

Not to mention Meyer, who insisted on separate legal representation - tacit admission he put his own interests before those of any school board they ‘assist.’

I think for any school board who really followed the case, the ID crowd’s behavior may have had as much of an impact as the loss did. The plaintiffs lawyers could only teach them that they might lose. Nothing the ACLU did or said could really drive the point home that school boards shouldn’t trust (institutes like) the Discovery Institute.

It took the DI’s desertion to teach that lesson.

FL said:

…Honestly? In hindsight, I think one of the great disadvantages for you evolutionist guys was that you actually WON the Dover trial.

Yes, winning every court case that exposes ID/Creationism for what it is, is a terrible disadvantage for us “Evos”. If only we could be as lucky as the Creationists that lose every decision. Oh wait, you guys did win that Scopes monkey trial way back when which was really advantageous for Creationism because it brought the issue before the public eye and the federal courts.

You guys got so astonishingly lazy afterwards (not just here but all evolution outlets), you got to the point where you mindlessly started saying “Dover”, “Kitzmiller”, or “Cdesign” like a robotic Magic Mantra. “See? Here’s Dover; discussion over!”

You are right, not one peer-reviewed scientific publication has come out since that decision. We really are getting lazy. I guess we better quit gloating and get to work otherwise all those Creation Scientists will fill all the literature with their research and findings!

Meanwhile, your opposition kept on examining and reexamining Jones’ decision, the arguments used, and the assumptions involved. They kept checking things out. They made sure that all your expert testimonies (Forrest, Padian, Miller) were properly and minutely responded to…and that the critiques were in writing and accessible to the public.

Oh wait, you mean the Cdesign side wasn’t out there doing real scientific research and publishing it in peer reviewed publications? I guess we “Evos” have nothing to worry about. Everyone, as you were, being lazy and all that. Oh and be sure to celebrate the Dover decision some more.

Issues like the Kitzmiller attorney trying to make it look as if Behe endorsed astrology as modern science, have been explained, resolved, neutralized by now.

Damn, how am I supposed to believe my horoscope will come true if Behe doesn’t endorse Astrology as science anymore? You ruined my month, FL, thanks.

In other words, a lot of pro-ID groundwork was laid, not just during the trial, but afterwards, even while evolutionists kept on celebrating and parroting the Magic Mantra. At this time, every Kitzmiller angle from “Cdesign…” to “Is ID religious…” has been thoroughly covered. The groundwork has been done.

Great, the groundwork establishing ID as science is laid and done. Please direct me to the scientific journals where Cdesign conjecturists have published their findings so I can judge for myself. If all they have actually done is come up with a bunch of unscientific apologist BS, I am going to be reaalllly disappointed. Here’s me waiting to be disappointed. :-(

I hope you don’t mind FL, I cut some of the most boring parts of your comment out (it’s really all boorish if we are being completely honest). I have to admit that you aren’t even nearly a laugh anymore.

sealawr said:

FL blathers thus: “Actually Robert, what I remember best about William Dembski regarding the Kitzmiller trial is this:

http://www.designinference.com/docu[…]_Dembski.pdf “

I love that document too. In legal terms, that’s called “unsworn inadmissible hearsay.” It’s one of my favorite Kitzmiller documents.

Dembski didn’t have the guts to actually stand up, get sworn in and testify under penalty of perjury. At least Behe made the effort and look where it got him.

No, but he did have the guts to pocket $20K anyways.

sealawr said:

Dembski didn’t have the guts to actually stand up, get sworn in and testify under penalty of perjury. At least Behe made the effort and look where it got him.

Kitzmiller, where ID finally had the opportunity to get a level playing field where both sides could testify under penalty of perjury.

ID forgot that means you have to tell the truth.

And all this took place after Dembski came out with his “terrifying” vice strategy that he just couldn’t wait to try out on a “darwinists” under oath; oh how he relished that thought.

Then, after Judge Jones’s decision, Dembski attempts to lampoon the Judge with a “fart video;” done in Dembski’s own voice no less.

Then Dembski offers his students extra credit for going on line and making fools of themselves taking on those mean ole “Darwinists” at websites like Panda’s Thumb. In this little ruse, Dembski is apparently imagining himself as “The General” directing his troops in a frontal assault on evolution. However, it comes across as the incompetent “Lt. Fuzz” sending his squad of rubes to their certain death while he pretends to be the “all wise general.”

And now all we see over at UD is raucous kvetching and wallowing in pretentious scholasticism about advanced topics in science; topics that not one of those idiots can even begin to comprehend because they can’t even grasp the basics.

ID/creationism is obviously ridiculous on its face, and easily taken down by science. Unfortunately, politicians pandering to sectarianism can make mischief by passing laws that have nothing to do with reality.

I guess we were never promised a rose garden in taking down these IDiots. Just when one thinks one has encountered the world’s biggest idiot, an IDiot comes along.

Wow! This is some kind of denial spin, even for you Floyd. Let’s take a look at your wishful…well…errm…completely made-up pep appeal:

Gosh. By now, Kitzmiller has got to be one of the most fisked court decision (and ole Judge Jonesy one of the most fisked judicial activists) in recent American jurisprudence.

And what exactly has the “fisking” accomplished? Has it reversed Judge Jones’ decision? Why no, it hasn’t. Has it allowed the use of the ID material that Dover attempted to put forth, such as Of Pandas and People? Why no, it hasn’t done that either. Did it, perchance, have any impact on Judge Jones himself or his career? Nope…in fact the Judge was not only awarded the American Humanist Associations Humanist Religious Liberty Award in 2008 (where, in his speech, he took the opportunity to note quite specifically why his critics’ complaints were of no value since they lacked any actual authority or education on Constitutional Law - funny that), but he was also elected to two judicial boards and the Board of Trustees for Dickinson College.

So what exactly does your claim of fisking even mean, FL, because it sure doesn’t appear to be anything more than a claim that some anonymous Internet yahoos and bullies made a lot of vacuous and mean-spirited things. Whoopeedoo.

Kitzmiller is now stuck with multiple refutations from multiple angles. Some are online, some made it into law journals, but there’s plenty of good anti-Kitzmiller refutations on the table, that’s for sure.

This would be disingenuous at best, Floyd. Basically DeWolf, West, and Luskins’ complaint essay made it into the University of Montana Law Review. And what impact has this complaint had? None. Nada. Zilch. It has not had any legal impact whatsoever. As for your claim of “plenty of anti-Kitzmiller refutations on the table, I repeat my question above - what exactly does this mean? Have any been used to reverse any point made? No. Have they been used to get any kind of ID information into any school? No. Have any of those refutations had any legal or societal impact whatsoever? Not so much.

DeWolf, West, and Luskin said it best in a 2007 Montana Law Review article: “Judge Jones’s opinion will serve future judges only with an example of how NOT to analyze the issues that were presented to him.” (For more information, see the following article, which includes a link to the MLR article: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/1[…]r027721.html )

Peanut galleries say the funniest things. Very telling how uninformed they were and still are. Let’s see, did Dover decide to press the issue and see how well the “activist judge’s opinion” would hold up in appeal? Why no, in fact the people of Dover utterly humiliated the Dover Board by unanimously voting them all out. Of course, there are a number of suites and law offices that cite Dover as an example of successful litigation strategies. See the Pepper Hamilton LLP Webinar for an example (link can be found at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmi[…]nd_criticism)

At any rate, the Kitzmiller Decision been sliced and diced so thoroughly, there’s not much chance of it recovering all the ground that it has lost.

And yet I have to ask, what ground to you imagine has been lost? Dover is certainly not thinking of adopting ID again - in fact the opposite would be true at this current date as they not only have solid, evolutionary-based science standards, but they now offer a comparative religions class as an elective. So what ground has this case lost in your mind, because it seems in reality-land the opposite is true.

Furthermore, in six years, NO school board or governmental entity has repeated the same specific, egregrious legal mistake that the Dover School Board stubbornly insisted on making, (against the clear public warnings of ID advocates), to its own detriment.

Yeah…which is actually evidence against your claims above, Floyd. See the thing is, if, as you claim, Judge Jones’ decision had been so thoroughly fisked as to now demonstrate definitively that the decision was wrong, then other ideological nutcase school boards would feel confident in being able to counter such a case and claim legal victory for pursuing exactly what the Dover School Board attempted. Yet none have! Why? Because contrary to your pompous ass-puffery, Floyd, the Dover decision hasn’t been fisked in any actual legal sense and every religious fundamentalist school board member knows he or she would be utterly humiliated and legally torn to shreds if they attempted such stupidity.

Nor was there ever any need to make any such mistake anyway, as Texas and Louisiana have very effectively demonstrated recently.

You mean by adopting an act that has no impact on teaching evolution and doesn’t actually allow inclusion of ID and/or creationism? How’s that working for you, Floyd.

The fact is, had Dover had the LSEA you love to praise, it still would have been sued with the same outcome had the board tried to introduce Of Pandas and People. The fact is, your LSEA doesn’t protect anything. Heck, the nearly all creationist board in Texas - Rick Perry’s board - shot down the use of a creationism-based text book in October 2011 and picked an strong evolution-based textbook instead. That wasn’t the work of your LSEA, so I don’t see what you even like about it, Floyd. It must be the fact that it’s a non-functioning piece of legislation, which just makes your claims plain old weird.

****

Did Kitzmiller put an end to ID? Hardly. ID has only spread further and further in the past six years. Notice that Gary Hurd said “officially infiltrate” but carefully remained stone-silent about unofficial infiltration. Mustn’t be a Debbie Downer, eh?

Umm…and where is the evidence that ID has spread further and further? Your PR campaign to put a smile on the frowning creationist is all well and good, but the fact is ID support is shrinking:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/ev[…]-design.aspx

So the perspective on ID and creationism is declining while the perspective on evolution is increasing. That doesn’t exactly bode well for your proclamations there Floyd.

Consider well: In 2009, Darwin’s 150th birthday, only a few years after all the Kitzmiller Decision media hype, the majority of the American people clearly SUPPORTED intelligent design (Zogby Poll, 1053 likely voters, margin of error +/- 3.1 percentage points):<./blockquote>

And how reliable are those polls commissioned by the Disco Tute?

“Although Zogby polls commissioned by the Discovery Institute show more support, these polls suffer from considerable flaws, such as having a very low response rate (248 out of 16,000), being conducted on behalf of an organization with an expressed interest in the outcome of the poll, and containing leading questions.[87][88][89]”

Yawn.

Statement A: The development of life came about through an unguided process of random mutations and natural selection.

Statement B: The development of life was guided by intelligent design.

Statement A: 33%

Statement B: 52%

Neither: 7%

Other/Not sure: 8

That should tell you something.

Yeah, it tells me you don’t know how to read a poll…

And as Judge Jones along with a slew of scientists and school officials note(d), science doesn’t cater to public opinion. 99.9% of the US population could buy into ID and it still would not make it science or worthy of even a footnote in a science journal or class textbook. And Dover not only demonstrated that, but set that as precedent. That’s what’s important.

Furthermore, in 2011, PandasThumb is now monitoring ID activity on a WEEKLY basis, week in week out (via Jack Scanlan’s blogs). Putting it all together, that should give you some idea of how much ID is clearly worrying the evolutionist community, and how much ID has spread further and further in its national influence over the past six years.

LOL! And have you read some of Scanlan’s entries: “Nothing to report this week” has been pretty common. Why? Because you clowns have nothing to brag about.

And ID efforts have helped create a national climate in which an overwhelming public majority of Americans support the presentation of both strengths AND weaknesses of evolution whenever the topic is presented in the public schools. ( http://www.discovery.org/a/11631 )

See above on this: Yawn…

****

So, in light of these facts, what is Kitzmiller’s current value? Well, there’s always “Nostalgia” value, like the 15-cent McDonald’s hamburger, or the 25-cent-a-gallon gasoline pump. It’s always fun to be able to say, “Hey, I was there when…” The good ole days, aye?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spring[…]/3924490018/

And yet you can’t seem to point to one piece of evidence that the Kitzmiller Decision somehow has no power or that the fisking somehow has some. Funny that.

****

So by all means, celebrate Kitzmiller. Pour a glass of Welch’s Sparkling Grape Juice. Toast with good friends.

Just remember that the “good ole days” are long, long gone, if you’re an evolutionist.

Kitzmiller is NOT officially defeated, nor is it dead.

But unofficially…it’s caged and declawed and defanged, not to mention a coupla bullet holes in the side.

So, enjoy whatever’s left of it, baby. Party Hearty!!

FL

LOL! Cheers Floyd! Dover vs Kitzmiller: Six grand years of making creationists like Floyd Lee look like complete idiots!

Dave Luckett said:

robert van bakel said:

Doc Bill remembers Dembsky running like a scared child upon being confronted by the indefatigable Barbara F, so do I. But do you remember his ‘backdoor’ antics at trying to have his testimony read into evidence as an ‘absent’ expert witness? The mighty judge treated the twit with the contempt he deserved and said if he wants to say something, step up and say it. William’s answer was the answer John Cleese’s character gave in the “Holy Grail”; ‘Run Awaaaaay!!’

That was actually Graham Chapman, as Arthur, when the French started heaving cows at them.

I think a much better parallel for Dembski (and it even comes from the same movie) is Brave Sir Robin!

FL said:

Gosh. By now, Kitzmiller has got to be one of the most fisked court decision (and ole Judge Jonesy one of the most fisked judicial activists) in recent American jurisprudence. Kitzmiller is now stuck with multiple refutations from multiple angles. Some are online, some made it into law journals, but there’s plenty of good anti-Kitzmiller refutations on the table, that’s for sure.

DeWolf, West, and Luskin said it best in a 2007 Montana Law Review article: “Judge Jones’s opinion will serve future judges only with an example of how NOT to analyze the issues that were presented to him.”

(For more information, see the following article, which includes a link to the MLR article: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/1[…]r027721.html )

At any rate, the Kitzmiller Decision been sliced and diced so thoroughly, there’s not much chance of it recovering all the ground that it has lost.

Furthermore, in six years, NO school board or governmental entity has repeated the same specific, egregrious legal mistake that the Dover School Board stubbornly insisted on making, (against the clear public warnings of ID advocates), to its own detriment.

Nor was there ever any need to make any such mistake anyway, as Texas and Louisiana have very effectively demonstrated recently.

****

Did Kitzmiller put an end to ID? Hardly. ID has only spread further and further in the past six years. Notice that Gary Hurd said “officially infiltrate” but carefully remained stone-silent about unofficial infiltration. Mustn’t be a Debbie Downer, eh?

Consider well: In 2009, Darwin’s 150th birthday, only a few years after all the Kitzmiller Decision media hype, the majority of the American people clearly SUPPORTED intelligent design (Zogby Poll, 1053 likely voters, margin of error +/- 3.1 percentage points):

Statement A: The development of life came about through an unguided process of random mutations and natural selection.

Statement B: The development of life was guided by intelligent design.

Statement A: 33%

Statement B: 52%

Neither: 7%

Other/Not sure: 8

That should tell you something. Furthermore, in 2011, PandasThumb is now monitoring ID activity on a WEEKLY basis, week in week out (via Jack Scanlan’s blogs). Putting it all together, that should give you some idea of how much ID is clearly worrying the evolutionist community, and how much ID has spread further and further in its national influence over the past six years.

And ID efforts have helped create a national climate in which an overwhelming public majority of Americans support the presentation of both strengths AND weaknesses of evolution whenever the topic is presented in the public schools. ( http://www.discovery.org/a/11631 )

****

So, in light of these facts, what is Kitzmiller’s current value? Well, there’s always “Nostalgia” value, like the 15-cent McDonald’s hamburger, or the 25-cent-a-gallon gasoline pump. It’s always fun to be able to say, “Hey, I was there when…” The good ole days, aye?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spring[…]/3924490018/

****

So by all means, celebrate Kitzmiller. Pour a glass of Welch’s Sparkling Grape Juice. Toast with good friends.

Just remember that the “good ole days” are long, long gone, if you’re an evolutionist.

Kitzmiller is NOT officially defeated, nor is it dead.

But unofficially…it’s caged and declawed and defanged, not to mention a coupla bullet holes in the side.

So, enjoy whatever’s left of it, baby. Party Hearty!!

FL

Merry Christmas

Gary_Hurd said:

That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

It could have been Ohio, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Montana, etc. before Dover. Not to take away from those involved in Kitzmiller, but the IDiots (creationist boneheads) do not listen to the science side. It was the ID perps themselves that kept and have continued to keep ID out of the public schools. Meyer ran the bait and switch on the Ohio rubes personally in 2002. The Ohio IDiots wanted to teach the science of intelligent design, but all they got from the ID perps was a switch scam that doesn’t even mention that ID ever existed. The Discovery Institute made sure that the Louisiana IDiots got shot down when they tried to get the ID supplements into public schools, last year, using the bogus switch scam law that the IDiots there had bent over for and had taken from the ID perps that had lied to them about the science of intelligent design. The Texas switch scam efforts were shot down in June by the Discovery Institute. Not a single legislator or school board that has ever come forward and wanted to teach the science of intelligent design has been supported in that effort by the guys that sold them the ID scam. Just look what they did to Michele Bachmann this year when she came out and claimed to support teaching intelligent design in the public schools. Did they support teaching intelligent design or did they run in the switch scam on her?

In Dover the ID perps just ran into a group that were too stupid to take the hint that if the guys that sold the ID scam tell you that they have a new scam that doesn’t even mention that ID ever existed, that you might want to listen to the scam artists. Instead the cretins went with their “free” legal help and ID got tested in the courts. ID would not have suffered such a test if the Discovery Institute ID perps had, had their way. That is just a fact.

The plain and simple fact is that the ID perps at the Discovery Institute knew from the beginning that ID was just a bogus scam. You don’t run the bait and switch scam on your own creationist support base for giggles. It is just a fact that the major force keeping intelligent design out of the public schools for the last decade (years before Kitzmiller) have been the guys that sold the creationist IDiots the ID scam in the first place.

If the ID perps hadn’t been so vigilant in their efforts to censor themselves we would be testing the switch scam law in court in Louisiana at this time. The Discovery Institute lobbied hard and still only a couple of votes stood between having the ID perp’s switch scam revealed for what it is and getting the IDiots to back down.

The IDiot/creationists really don’t listen to the science side. The deciding factor for the last decade has been the ID perp’s efforts to censor themselves to keep from having their scams revealed for what they are.

The anniversary to look forward to is the Ohio bait and switch. It will be 10 years of the Discovery Institute running the bait and switch on any IDiot rube stupid enough to have believed their junk about ID in just a couple of months. The ID perps have been selling the science of intelligent design, but all any rube has ever gotten from them is a switch scam that doesn’t even mention that ID ever existed. After 10 years of such bogus actions you have to wonder why there are any IDiots left in existence.

At this season we should all count our blessings, and express our humble gratitude to the Ultimate Source of all such blessings.

As this thread so well demonstrates, all honest Christians must thank the Lord for sending Special Angels, such as FL, IBIG, Andersen, Henry, AC, and others to show us how NOT to act as Christians.

Without their untiring efforts, some of us might occasionally be tempted to use ridicule, threats, and anger against others of God’s children, and attack those who strive to reveal the real wonders of God’s Creation.

But with FL and the others as glaring examples of how NOT to be a Christian, and how NOT to represent the faith– and how NOT to lead others to honor and respect the Prince of Peace– we have constant reminders to keep us from falling into their miasma of prideful ignorance and spiteful attacks against those truly blessed with wisdom and insight into God’s natural world.

FL said:

Robin says,

But Floyd - you yourself have noted that neither Texas nor Louisiana can use the LSEA to actually…you know…teach creationism or ID. They can’t even be used to poke holes in evolution.

First sentence is accurate, of course. But the second sentence is yours, and where did you get it from?

After all, subjecting assorted evolutionary claims to critical-thinking processes is bound to produce perforations perforce.

Ah ah ah there Floyd…perhaps you need to reread the fine print:

5 C. A teacher shall teach the material presented in the standard textbook 6 supplied by the school system and thereafter may use supplemental textbooks 7 and other instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, 8 and review scientific theories in an objective manner, as permitted by the city, 9 parish, or other local public school board unless otherwise prohibited by the 10 State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education. 11 D. This Section shall not be construed to promote any religious doctrine, 12 promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs, or 13 promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion.

You see Mr. Wizard, that little “lost ground effort” in Dover, PA established precedent with regard to ID being religion. That includes things like questioning radiometric dating, age of the Earth, putting forth IDC and CSI and cell information. It also takes things like “lack of evidence in the fossil record” and archeopteryx as a hoax off the table. In fact Floyd, every supposed “hole” you all have dreamed up thus far is pretty much a no-no given that they were shown to be…wait for it…part of the whole ID conspiracy. So the moment some conservative clown tries to use the LSEA to put forth some schlock about some supposed “controversy” or “hole” in evolutionary theory, just sit back and watch the lawsuits roll in.

That might be why…oh I don’t know…no one in Louisiana has even breathed a thought about testing it out.

The fact is that maybe a few Standard Canned Darwin Textbook claims might git all poked-up in front of the high school science students. Doubts…evil, nagging DOUBTS about evolution…may well enter the minds of the young future scientists.

You are smoking some powerful psychogenic there Floyd. Tell me Mr. Watch-Evolution-Crumble-Under-The-Mighty-LSEA, why hasn’t anyone put forth these hole pokings as of yet? You waiting for Darwin’s 300th birthday to give the act some irony?

That’s why you guys fought Louisiana and Texas, honestly. You didn’t want any biology teachers deviating from that good ole cann’d spam’d Darwin Dogma in the biology textbooks.

Well given all the cheering on your side and the…ahem…action on that front, apparently we didn’t need to worry at all.

Unfortunately for you (but fortunately for science), you lost.

FL

Yeah…ok… Will you be so kind as to wake me when this loss we experienced has some impact, please? Maybe then your claims won’t sound so much like Bagdad Bob’s…

Who was it who, hunkered down in his bunker, his capital in ruins over his head, his enemies shelling his last fanatical defenders, spent his final days ordering around nonexistent divisions and predicting final victory with the advent of secret miracle weapons? Oh, and blaming his generals for screwing up and losing battles (like FL blames the Dover board). And calling retreats “strategic shortening of lines.”

Dang, I can’t think of who that was.

Gary_Hurd said:

That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

What a victory it was for design deniers!

The State to the rescue. Evolution is saved.

Protected. Insulated.

All warm and fuzzy.

But then that is all evolution ever was.

Now a bit more lukewarm;

but still fuzzy.

Steve P. said:

Gary_Hurd said:

That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

What a victory it was for design deniers!

The State to the rescue. Evolution is saved.

Protected. Insulated.

All warm and fuzzy.

But then that is all evolution ever was.

Now a bit more lukewarm;

but still fuzzy.

And yet, your latest display of mental diarrhea demonstrates (again) that Intelligent Design is not, will not, never was, never was intended to be science, and that all you have ever been interested in is making an Asshole for Jesus of yourself here.

Steve P. said:

Gary_Hurd said:

That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

What a victory it was for design deniers!

The State to the rescue. Evolution is saved.

Protected. Insulated.

All warm and fuzzy.

But then that is all evolution ever was.

Now a bit more lukewarm;

but still fuzzy.

I mean, I’d ask you why does Intelligent Design deserve to be taught in place of science in science classrooms, but, you’ve repeatedly stated before that you’re too lazy to explain why, and like I said, your only purpose here is to make an Asshole For Jesus out of yourself.

Steve P. said:

Gary_Hurd said:

That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

The State to the rescue. Evolution is saved.

Protected. Insulated.

All warm and fuzzy.

But then that is all evolution ever was.

Now a bit more lukewarm;

but still fuzzy.

Oh please Steve, Dover was supposed to be Evolution’s Waterloo.

ID was licking its chops expecting victory.

Merry Fitzmas

Steve P. said:

All warm and fuzzy.

But then that is all evolution ever was.

Now a bit more lukewarm;

but still fuzzy.

…but definitely fuzzier than the scientific illiteracy of intelligent design creationism, which is nothing but a bald-faced lie.

Dover was supposed to be Evolution’s Waterloo.

Simply shift the geography, that;s all.

Dover = / = Evolution Waterloo.

Louisiana = Evolution Waterloo.

Fixed!

****

Meanwhile, here’s a nice Christmas education story, from Louisiana, just for Stanton. And of course, Merry Christmas, (as in Jesus Christ who for some reason doesn’t cuss like you do).

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-[…]788053/#null

FL

FL said:

Meanwhile, here’s a nice Christmas education story, from Louisiana, just for Stanton. And of course, Merry Christmas, (as in Jesus Christ who for some reason doesn’t cuss like you do).

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-[…]788053/#null

FL

A nice story indeed; Louisiana has been able to increase its secondary school graduation rate up to just a bit below the national average by focusing on at-risk students and providing mechanisms to recover from failed courses and missed days.

Of course, the story (a) has nothing to do with Christmas, (b) doesn’t discuss any changes to the science curriculum, and (c) doesn’t address post-graduation outcomes such as effects on admission to and performance in college-level STEM programs.

FL said:

Dover was supposed to be Evolution’s Waterloo.

Simply shift the geography, that;s all.

Dover = / = Evolution Waterloo.

Louisiana = Evolution Waterloo.

Fixed!

Why is it fixed? How come the LSEA is not improving test scores or student aptitude in Louisiana?

How does it change the fact that Intelligent Design Creationism is nothing but anti-science religious propaganda?

Meanwhile, here’s a nice Christmas education story, from Louisiana, just for Stanton. And of course, Merry Christmas, (as in Jesus Christ who for some reason doesn’t cuss like you do).

Hey, asshole, if you don’t like me using invectives in response to your shameless lying and asshole behavior, why don’t you stop behaving like a lying asshole? Oh, wait, no, you would sooner kill yourself than contemplate not being a Lying Asshole For Jesus.

Furthermore, how does that link explain how and why the LSEA will help students in Louisiana understand science even though they currently are among the worst performing students in the country, and that creationist teachers are not even using the LSEA to teach Creationism in science classrooms?

SWT said:

Of course, the story (a) has nothing to do with Christmas, (b) doesn’t discuss any changes to the science curriculum, and (c) doesn’t address post-graduation outcomes such as effects on admission to and performance in college-level STEM programs.

FL does not concern himself with painfully useless little details, like those that you’ve mentioned.

So long as there is an opportunity to spread another lie for Jesus, he’ll take it. If it makes him look like an idiot in the process, he won’t care.

Of course, the story (a) has nothing to do with Christmas, (b) doesn’t discuss any changes to the science curriculum, and (c) doesn’t address post-graduation outcomes such as effects on admission to and performance in college-level STEM programs.

Well, let’s see…

(a) There was a tiny little “Dec.25” attached to the story, (in fact, it’s still there, when you put the arrow on the thumbnail entitled “Louisiana Schools Make the Grade”). So it’s clear that the MSNBC story aired on Christmas Day. That’s all I meant.

(b) Quite true, but that’s not why I offered the story. Stanton’s favorite schtick is that Louisiana is one of the worst school systems in America, (and therefore the LSEA must somehow be a bad thing.)

Now on the Bathroom Wall, we’ve already seen that the passage of the LSEA has not contributed in any way to Louisiana’s generally poor reputation, based on ACT science scores for the past three years.

But now that Louisiana is clearly moving close to the National Average in its grad rates, I think that Stanton, (and a few others too), need to be aware of the new development. I’m sure they will welcome the news.

The fact is that providing after-school “Re-Take” courses, and providing parents with instant “Online Score-Checking” of their kid’s homework and tests, works just as well for Science classes as it does for English classes.

And of course, the LSEA will help those Science students to develop genuine critical-thinking skills as part of their science education, so they can do science better.

Win-Win situation for all of us, wouldn’t you agree?

(c) If you’re a high-schooler getting B’s and C’s instead of D’s and F’s because of the new Louisiana changes, your chances of making it into college at all (and especially into biology, physical sciences, and STEM) would go up rather significantly, I would think.

***

So, all in all, it’s simply a good news story for Panda People to be aware of. Meanwhile, Merry Christmas again, (and make no mistake: it’s Christ or nothing)!!

FL :)

Hey, one more thing: the phrase Cussing For Jesus™ just came to mind.

No need to belabor it today, (it’s still the holidays!), but it might come up in future posts.

FL

Flawd the Damnd said:

the phrase Cussing For Jesus™ just came to mind.

Don’t forget Drooling for Jesus TM, Flawd.

FL the Asshole said:

Hey, one more thing: the phrase Cussing For Jesus™ just came to mind.

No need to belabor it today, (it’s still the holidays!), but it might come up in future posts.

FL

As opposed to Lying For Jesus?

Tell me, FL, why do you care that I use profanity, yet, you literally do not give a damn about lying, or acting like a smarmy asshole, even though the Bible states otherwise?

FL said:

Of course, the story (a) has nothing to do with Christmas, (b) doesn’t discuss any changes to the science curriculum, and (c) doesn’t address post-graduation outcomes such as effects on admission to and performance in college-level STEM programs.

Well, let’s see…

(a) There was a tiny little “Dec.25” attached to the story, (in fact, it’s still there, when you put the arrow on the thumbnail entitled “Louisiana Schools Make the Grade”). So it’s clear that the MSNBC story aired on Christmas Day. That’s all I meant.

So, where in that story did it specifically state that the story had to do with Christmas?

(b) Quite true, but that’s not why I offered the story. Stanton’s favorite schtick is that Louisiana is one of the worst school systems in America, (and therefore the LSEA must somehow be a bad thing.)

So, where in the story did it state that the LSEA has helped bring Louisiana schools up to below average?

Now on the Bathroom Wall, we’ve already seen that the passage of the LSEA has not contributed in any way to Louisiana’s generally poor reputation, based on ACT science scores for the past three years.

Yet, you’ve ignored the fact that the LSEA has had nothing to do with improving or even affecting ACT scores, and that all of the so-called “facts” you brought up were cherrypicked and taken out of context.

But now that Louisiana is clearly moving close to the National Average in its grad rates, I think that Stanton, (and a few others too), need to be aware of the new development. I’m sure they will welcome the news.

Yet, you refuse to explain how the LSEA’s insistence on teaching Creationist, anti-science propaganda will help students learn science, and you ignore that none of the Creationist teachers in Louisiana are willing to even use the LSEA’s anti-science guide lines for fear of lawsuits.

In other words, you still haven’t explained to us how the LSEA is going to help the students in Louisiana. Pretending to explain to us, using distortions and lies, is not the same as actually explain to us.

The fact is that providing after-school “Re-Take” courses, and providing parents with instant “Online Score-Checking” of their kid’s homework and tests, works just as well for Science classes as it does for English classes.

And of course, the LSEA will help those Science students to develop genuine critical-thinking skills as part of their science education, so they can do science better.

FL, you are a malicious idiot if you think teaching children “critical-thinking skills” means teaching that scientists are always wrong because they contradict a literal interpretation of the Bible, or means forcefeeding them lies about evolution.

Win-Win situation for all of us, wouldn’t you agree?

No, it isn’t. Repeating your lie will not miraculously transmute it into truth.

(c) If you’re a high-schooler getting B’s and C’s instead of D’s and F’s because of the new Louisiana changes, your chances of making it into college at all (and especially into biology, physical sciences, and STEM) would go up rather significantly, I would think.

I doubt it, actually. Colleges and universities do take an interest in knowing what sort of curriculum incoming students have taken. And I strongly doubt that a college or a university would be willing to take in a straight-A student if it’s found out that his science education was nothing but rote memorization of Bible verses and parroting how scientists hate God.

So, all in all, it’s simply a good news story for Panda People to be aware of. Meanwhile, Merry Christmas again, (and make no mistake: it’s Christ or nothing)!!

Why should you care if we have a Merry Christmas, or not?

You’ve repeatedly told us that we’ve been damned to Hell for an eternity of rape and fire at the hands of God for not worshiping you.

BTW, FL, tell us again why we should trust your assessments in the first place:

After all, you’ve told us that you believe science is really an evil pagan religion that worships Evolution as some sort of evil demon-god, that science classrooms are actually a kind of church, and that Charles Darwin is a bible.

You’ve also demonstrated to us that your method of “teaching children critical-thinking skills about science” is to forcefeed them lies that evolution is failing, that scientists are evil and hate God, that science can not be trusted whenever it contradicts your interpretation of the Bible, and that children need to believe that GODDIDIT as according to your interpretation of the Book of Genesis, or they will be killed by God, then tortured forever in Hell at His hands for your amusement for all eternity.

FL said:

Of course, the story (a) has nothing to do with Christmas …

Well, let’s see…

(a) There was a tiny little “Dec.25” attached to the story, (in fact, it’s still there, when you put the arrow on the thumbnail entitled “Louisiana Schools Make the Grade”). So it’s clear that the MSNBC story aired on Christmas Day. That’s all I meant.

Uh huh. Here’s a Christmas Eve story for you …

ID died in Dover. I got interested in the debate in the lead up to the court case. People here were probably too close to the case to remember. At the time there was in the chattering classes some sympathy and debate about ID. A lot of people that were not fundies (and even some agnostics) read the books and became supporters. There was debate in the more serious papers (eg SMH in Australia).

The main complaint here in Panda’s was the the reporting was very much he said/she said. Then Dover started and after reading the transcripts everything changed. Except for the wingnuts and the creationists, ID got dropped like a ton of bricks and it became a laughing stock.

MichaelJ said:

ID died in Dover. I got interested in the debate in the lead up to the court case. People here were probably too close to the case to remember. At the time there was in the chattering classes some sympathy and debate about ID. A lot of people that were not fundies (and even some agnostics) read the books and became supporters. There was debate in the more serious papers (eg SMH in Australia).

The main complaint here in Panda’s was the the reporting was very much he said/she said. Then Dover started and after reading the transcripts everything changed. Except for the wingnuts and the creationists, ID got dropped like a ton of bricks and it became a laughing stock.

Actually, Intelligent Design has been dead since its conception. In direct contrast to what its Creationist supporters claim, Intelligent Design can not be used to do science. The fact that even Phillip Johnson, its father, lamented about how Intelligent Design does not have explanatory power is the biggest of the several stakes in its rotting heart.

Dover is not Intelligent Design’s site of demise: it was just another spot the people were given Intelligent Design’s autopsy findings.

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This page contains a single entry by Dave Thomas published on December 20, 2011 4:48 PM.

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