Creation “Museum” gets dinosaur fossil

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The Creation “Museum” in Kentucky recently acquired an Allosaurus fossil, according to an AP release by Dylan Lovan yesterday. The proprietor of the Creation “Museum,” Ken Ham, seems to think that the mere acquisition of a dinosaur fossil gives his “museum” credibility and makes it a real museum. The fossil was donated by the Elizabeth Streb Peroutka Foundation of Maryland, about which I have so far managed to learn virtually nothing.

The article quotes geologist Dan Phelps, a perpetual thorn in the side of the Creation “Museum”:

“The Creation Museum has asserted the specimen to be evidence of Noah’s flood without any actual research,” said Dan Phelps, president of the Kentucky Paleontological Society, said in an email Friday.

“Real vertebrate paleontologists study the surrounding sediments and the geological context of their finds,” he added. “Of course since the Creation Museum doesn’t do scientific research, all (it) really has done is obtain a nice display trophy.”

Mr. Phelps added his concern that vertebrate paleontologists would not be allowed to study the specimen, according to Mr. Lovan. Mr. Ham’s geologist, Andrew Snelling, told Mr. Lovan,

The well-preserved condition of the Allosaurus is evidence that it died during a worldwide flood as described in the Bible’s Old Testament, Andrew Snelling, a geologist at the Creation Museum, said in the statement.

Snelling said the fossil’s intact skeleton is proof of an extremely rapid burial, “which is a confirmation of the global catastrophe of a flood a few thousand years ago.”

That sure is evidence! Rapid burials could surely not have happened more than a few thousand years ago.

Mr. Ham responded to Mr. Phelps’s concerns with a polite but ad hominem attack on Mr. Phelps, a geologist whose only fault seems to be that he does not hold a PhD degree. Dr. Snelling indeed holds a PhD degree, and at one time he (or his Doppelgänger) apparently published real papers in real journals. You would not know that from his biography on the AIG website, however, which shows only fake research into creation “science” – fake because both Mr. Ham and Dr. Snelling know the outcome of the “research” in advance, sort of like the hired guns who used to work for the tobacco industry.

181 Comments

This is the guy who runs the Foundation.…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Peroutka In the United States presidential election, 2004, he was the Constitution Party candidate. His campaign theme was “God, Family, Republic” and he emphasized the Bible, the traditional family, and the need for constitutionally limited government. His running mate was independent Baptist minister Chuck Baldwin. He gained support from many paleoconservatives, and was also endorsed by the America First Party and Alaskan Independence Party.[1] Peroutka was also endorsed by the League of the South and supported by a group called “Southerners for Peroutka”.[2] Peroutka accepted the endorsement from the League at their 2004 national convention. Radio host Alex Jones stated he would be voting for Peroutka.[3]

He appeared on the White Nationalist [4] radio show, The Political Cesspool to promote his campaign, describing it as a “Christian/Constitutionalist radio program” and “a great blessing to our cause”.[5]

More info on the Foundation: http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/MD/E[…]ion-Inc.html

Steve Peroutka seems to be the founder of National Pro-Life Radio.

http://www.nationalproliferadio.net[…]p;spid=28408

The Elizabeth Streb Peroutka Foundation (named for his mother) supports a variety of pro-life causes.

Missed it by that much!

Does it have a bit in its mouth?

They should get some casts of people rapidly buried at Pompeii as further proof of the global flood. Nothing else could do it, you know.

Glen Davidson

We recently calculated here that if the flood waters came from “the canopy,” we would see energy deposition at the Earth’s surface to be something like 10^10 megatons of TNT going off every second over every square meter of the Earth’s surface for 40 days and nights. All other flood scenarios produce similar rates of energy deposition.

I would like to know how that dinosaur stayed intact for even one second.

Will the real Dr. Snelling please stand up ?

http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.a[…]snelling.htm

The well-preserved condition of the Allosaurus is evidence that it died during a worldwide flood as described in the Bible’s Old Testament, Andrew Snelling, a geologist at the Creation Museum, said in the statement.

Snelling said the fossil’s intact skeleton is proof of an extremely rapid burial, “which is a confirmation of the global catastrophe of a flood a few thousand years ago.”

Just for the sake of mentioning the obvious, even if the only mechanism for rapid burial was flooding, that still doesn’t mean this allocator died in the flood.

As I’m sure our readers from Colorado and Louisiana are ready to attest, extremely violent flooding, capable of dragging away and burying creatures the size of a car do happen, since some of those readers are, in fact, still looking for their cars.

In fact, a localized flood, which could carry a body some ways before dumping it in a quiet bend to be buried, is much more likely to leave an articulated corpse than a global event, which kills everything and then thrashes their bloating, floating, decomposing, limb-dropping bodies for more than a month.

There’s a reason bodies that when mobsters toss a body into a quiet lake it gets found in one piece but when they chuck a body into the ocean it washes up in chunks.

Just out of curiosity – Do Ham & Co. consider ALL fossils to be the result of the Flood, or will they allow that some could have been deposited between Creation and the Flood?

Or can they allow some to have been deposited after the Flood? After all, if a mineralized skeleton could have originated as recently as Noah’s time, then why not a few centuries younger still?

And if they allow either of those possibilities, then how do “creation scientists” tell the difference?

At least it goes well with Ken Hamster’s primitive skull.

Does anyone know the provenance of this allosaur skull? I wonder if it is possibly the one discussed at: http://www.raisingthetruth.com/ Seems there was some dispute over the recovery of this specimen. There was an AIG connection.

Just Bob said:

Just out of curiosity – Do Ham & Co. consider ALL fossils to be the result of the Flood, or will they allow that some could have been deposited between Creation and the Flood?

Or can they allow some to have been deposited after the Flood? After all, if a mineralized skeleton could have originated as recently as Noah’s time, then why not a few centuries younger still?

And if they allow either of those possibilities, then how do “creation scientists” tell the difference?

Answers in Genesis is definitely of the “fossils can form quickly!” camp, and some of the articles on their site trot out “fossils” of recent human artefacts, usually with the aid of lime-rich water in mine shafts and such. If you can stand the tone, then see this one for an example.

As to how they can tell when something was fossilized (pre-, during, or post-Flood), I suppose it depends on whether or not real scientists say it’s millions of years old. If it is, then the general retort is that it fossilized during the flood. If it’s a miner’s hat or a rock pick, some Creationists say it’s a modern example of rapid fossilization and some claim it as evidence of advanced technology in a pre-Flood world.

It is very likely that the allosaur specimen is the one mentioned at http://www.raisingthetruth.com based on this from the AIG article:

“One blessing in getting the allosaur was that the Creation Museum did not seek it out. Ten years ago, the Elizabeth Streb Peroutka Foundation bought the specimen and housed it. Thousands of hours later, the bones of this magnificent fossil are almost completely cleaned and restored thanks to the DeRosa family of Creation Expeditions.”

If you spend time reading the reference website above, it is clear that shenanigans occurred, surprisingly among Christians. Maybe Ken could elaborate on this prize specimen’s past.

Hey, Ham actually linked to you guys. http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/b[…]-dan-phelps/

Ken Ham from the previous link

Even with the credentialed scientists at the Creation Museum, and the high quality exhibits and specimens we possess, evolutionists like Dan Phelps will continue to “suppress the truth” as Romans 1 tells us, unless their hearts are opened to the truth of God’s Word. We need to pray that the light of God’s eternal truth will shine on Dan Phelps’ heart.

Total wanker. What that guy needs is to look at his own organization’s statement of faith where they promise to discard as invalid any evidence, real or imagined, that goes against their bible.

They want to complain about others “suppressing the truth”? They’d better stop doing so themselves. That statement of faith of theirs is the opposite of the scientific method, where one is guided by the facts, not discarding them in favor of what one wants to believe.

Since that statement of faith is a requirement for employment there, it doesn’t matter one whit if their staff is “credentialed” or not. Once they agree to work there, they have promised to toe the ideological line instead of doing actual science.

I agree that acquisition of a dinosaur fossil gives his “museum” credibility and makes it a real museum.How can something be sure about the global catastrophe of a flood a few thousand years ago? No one can confirm or deny it.

Andy White said:

I agree that acquisition of a dinosaur fossil gives his “museum” credibility and makes it a real museum.How can something be sure about the global catastrophe of a flood a few thousand years ago? No one can confirm or deny it.

Of course people can deny it! If an event would leave all sorts of observable evidence and it is not found, then either it never happened, or somehow the evidence was erased. In the case of the Biblical flood, the “miracles” needed to erase expected evidence far exceed all the “recorded” miracles in the Bible. Most of the other miracles, like the “long day”, also are totally lacking in evidence.

Andy White said:

I agree that acquisition of a dinosaur fossil gives his “museum” credibility and makes it a real museum.How can something be sure about the global catastrophe of a flood a few thousand years ago? No one can confirm or deny it.

I can.

Charley Horse said:

This is the guy who runs the Foundation.…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Peroutka In the United States presidential election, 2004, he was the Constitution Party candidate. His campaign theme was “God, Family, Republic” and he emphasized the Bible, the traditional family, and the need for constitutionally limited government. His running mate was independent Baptist minister Chuck Baldwin. He gained support from many paleoconservatives, and was also endorsed by the America First Party and Alaskan Independence Party.[1] Peroutka was also endorsed by the League of the South and supported by a group called “Southerners for Peroutka”.[2] Peroutka accepted the endorsement from the League at their 2004 national convention. Radio host Alex Jones stated he would be voting for Peroutka.[3]

He appeared on the White Nationalist [4] radio show, The Political Cesspool to promote his campaign, describing it as a “Christian/Constitutionalist radio program” and “a great blessing to our cause”.[5]

More info on the Foundation: http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/MD/E[…]ion-Inc.html

Yet another demonstration that organized evolution denial is a feature of a political/social ideology with religious rationalizations.

Although Michael Peroutka ran a no-chance third party campaign in 2004, note that he is not associated with anything that ever actually hurt the electoral chances of a candidate from the major party associated with the movement, and that his antics are virtually never covered much in the media (not even the Maryland media).

Creationists have always been more racist than evolutionists, but since the 1990’s they’ve tried to claim that evolution is racism, and that creationists were never racist. Now we find that Ken Ham’s Creation Museum, allegedly anti-racist, cannot obtain scientific specimens without the help of creationist White Supremacists.

Charley Horse said:

This is the guy who runs the Foundation.…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Peroutka In the United States presidential election, 2004, he was the Constitution Party candidate. His campaign theme was “God, Family, Republic” and he emphasized the Bible, the traditional family, and the need for constitutionally limited government. His running mate was independent Baptist minister Chuck Baldwin. He gained support from many paleoconservatives, and was also endorsed by the America First Party and Alaskan Independence Party.[1] Peroutka was also endorsed by the League of the South and supported by a group called “Southerners for Peroutka”.[2] Peroutka accepted the endorsement from the League at their 2004 national convention. Radio host Alex Jones stated he would be voting for Peroutka.[3]

He appeared on the White Nationalist [4] radio show, The Political Cesspool to promote his campaign, describing it as a “Christian/Constitutionalist radio program” and “a great blessing to our cause”.[5]

More info on the Foundation: http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/MD/E[…]ion-Inc.html

The League of the South, and its leader Michael Hill, are hard-core racist, Christian reconstructionist/Dominionist, Confederates.

They have many ties to the Council of Conservative Citizens, previously called the Council of White Citizens. There are several articles at the Southern Poverty Law Center’s website on the racism of the League of the South.

Michael Hill and the LOS now deny being racist– oh yeah? Here’s a racist creationist speech from Michael Hill cited at the racist creationist “Kinist” blog Spirit, Water, Blood. “Kinism” is their BC (Biblically Correct) term for racism– they say “racism” is a pejorative, so they call themselves “Kinists” instead (you know, like the way ID proponents say “creationism” is a pejorative.) Kinists are followers of the fascist, racist, pro-eugenics, Holocaust-denying creationist Rousas Rushdoony.

Just Bob said:

Andy White said:

I agree that acquisition of a dinosaur fossil gives his “museum” credibility and makes it a real museum.How can something be sure about the global catastrophe of a flood a few thousand years ago? No one can confirm or deny it.

I can. How? Please write your ideas to prove it.

The Southern Poverty Law Center classifies the League of the South as a hate group. According to Wikipedia, Mr. Peroutka has praised them, but to his credit

unambiguously stated that, “there is one race and that’s the human race”. More recently on his radio show, also published on his website theamericanview.com, dated September 9, 2013, he unequivocally states, “all elevation or denigration of individuals or groups based on skin color is immoral and shameful.”

Still, it will be disturbing if creationists like Mr. Ham inch toward the racist right fringe.

Peroutka: “…elevation or denigration of individuals or groups based on skin color is immoral and shameful.”

Notice his list of immoralities does NOT include forced separation or segregation.

Andy White said:

Just Bob said:

Andy White said:

I agree that acquisition of a dinosaur fossil gives his “museum” credibility and makes it a real museum.How can something be sure about the global catastrophe of a flood a few thousand years ago? No one can confirm or deny it.

I can [confirm or deny the flood].

How? Please write your ideas to prove it.

Easy – watch.

There was no such thing as Noah’s worldwide flood.

There, I denied it.

And just above you have the proof that you asked for, that someone could deny it. My idea to prove that I could do it was to write it, as I did above.

Andy White said:

How can something be sure about the global catastrophe of a flood a few thousand years ago? No one can confirm or deny it.

Well, there is a problem here. A global flood a la Genesis is totally and completely inconsistent with reality as we can observe it to be. In order for Noah’s flood to have happened, just about every fundamental thing we know about physics (from thermodynamics to potential energy to gravity to nuclear decay to the conservation of energy) has to be wrong. Not just by a little, but by a lot.

If a global flood of the kind described in Genesis actually happened a few thousand years ago, there would be no multicellular life. Maybe no life on the surface of the Earth at all. The flooding process by itself would have released too much heat, before we even consider the other things YECs claim (like laying down the geological column all at once). Perhaps the kind of bacteria and archaea that live by munching minerals within rocks, deep inside the Earth’s crust, could survive it, but nobody up here would. It would be an effective way to completely sterilize a planet regardless of any sheltering wooden structures (which would all be reduced to ash in the ~1000°C heat), and that sterilization process would be ongoing even today.

How can something be sure about the global catastrophe of a flood a few thousand years ago? No one can confirm or deny it.

It’s kind of like last night when I was abducted by aliens and my brain was implanted with false memories, and they erased every trace of it.

Matt Young said:

The Southern Poverty Law Center classifies the League of the South as a hate group. According to Wikipedia, Mr. Peroutka has praised them, but to his credit

unambiguously stated that, “there is one race and that’s the human race”.

Means exactly nothing. First, the LOS is a racist group and Peroutka is a leader of that group. Not just a member– a leader.

The [League of the South]’s veneer of professorial respectability has been pierced numerous times, but perhaps never so dramatically as in the case of Michael Tubbs, who in the early 2000s was a leading league activist in Florida. In 2004, the [Southern Poverty Law Center] Report revealed that Tubbs was actually a convicted “Aryan” terrorist, a man who while in the military had robbed fellow soldiers at gunpoint of their weapons. (During one such theft, he and an accomplice had reportedly shouted, “This is for the KKK!”) When he was arrested, officials found several arms and explosives caches along with lists of targets that included newspapers, television stations and businesses owned by Jews and blacks. When these embarrassing facts were revealed, Hill and other league leaders allowed Tubbs to stay on, saying he’d paid his debt to society.

[Southern Poverty Law Center on the League of the South]

And Peroutka is clearly a leader of the racist LOS, Mr. Deep Pockets, who is proud to stand beside Aryan terrorist Tubbs:

Peroutka was a featured speaker at the League of the South’s national conference this past July [of 2012], as he was in 2004, 2008, and 2010.

League of the South President Michael Hill has written that white people possess a “God-ordained superiority” and that African Americans “have never created anything approximating a civilization.” Its Florida chapter chairman, Michael Tubbs, is, according to the SPLC, a convicted “Aryan” terrorist who amassed a stockpile of weapons and explosives along with a list of targets including businesses owned by Jews and blacks.

Peroutka appeared along with Hill and Tubbs in front of Confederate flags at the League of the South conference, said that he was grateful for the organization’s endorsement of his fringe 2004 presidential campaign and remarked that “If this be hate, let’s make the most of it.” In 2004, he wrote on his blog that “I am proud to be a member of the League of the South. I look forward to receiving the support … from guys with Confederate flags in their trucks.”

He has also appeared on a white supremacist radio show called The Political Cesspool. The Montgomery Advertiser reported that one of the bedrock principles of the show Peroutka appeared on is the need to “grow the percentages of Whites in the world relative to other races.”

[Top Anti-Marriage Donor in Maryland is Active in White Supremacist, Secessionist Causes. Dan Rafter. Human Rights Campaign, December 6, 2012.]

As for Peroutka saying “there is one race”, that means NOTHING. For better than a century Evangelicals combined the assertion that all humans descend from Noah’s sons with the belief that blacks are inferior because they’re morally inferior– sexually depraved and lazy– a judgment perfectly consistent with Christian values.

For historical perspective, let’s examine how Evangelical theologians in the US South defended slavery before and for a while after the Civil War. They did not claim blacks were less evolved, or a separate creation from whites. This is from Daly’s When Slavery Was Called Freedom.

Historian John Patrick Daly wrote:

[p. 84]: Evangelicals always pledged their allegiance to belief in the unity of races. ‘There is no such thing as gradations from brute natures to that of human: for man stands alone being the image of God,’ pronounced Josiah Priest in his Bible Defense of Slavery. Priest’s typical statement was an aside in his popular collection of an unbroken litany of biblical and psycho-sexual attacks on blacks… Priest, a former harness maker from New York, was sadly representative of the evangelical’s tendency to depart from many of the racist arguments from creation or permanent curses, but to recast brutal white supremacy in the framework of a competitive struggle to build moral character.

[p. 85]: Although some proslavery spokesmen used this ancient biblical tradition [Curse of Ham] to argue that all blacks were forever relegated by God to the status of slaves, most evangelical spokesmen stressed that Ham (and his current descendants) ‘brought himself into his sad dilemma.’ Sweeping racial dichotomies no longer stressed the ascendance of civilized human over heathen beast, but of moral victors over vanquished—-not in competition with each other but, as ministers were forever sermonizing, “with themselves.”

[Virginia Reverend] Thornton Stringfellow provided the standard formulation of character-based racism and competitive proslavery: ‘The slave race is placed upon a common level with all other competitors for the rewards of merit; but as the slaves are inferior in the qualities which give success among competitors…[they find] poverty or die out by inches degraded by vice and crime, unpitied by honest and virtuous men…’

[p. 86]: …Proslavery Presbyterian Nathan Rice defined Christ’s mission as ‘declaring a war of extermination against all the guilty passions of this earth.’ ‘Extermination’ was a word that invariably appeared in moral defenses of slavery, especially in reference to free blacks, ‘prematurely’ emancipated slaves, and Indians. As in other aspects of southern proslavery, Thomas R. Dew led the way in citing the travels of “Mungo Park” and describing how the ‘decree of Providence had gone forth,’ promising ‘total extermination’ of those with weak character. Dew, like evangelical ministers, concluded that slavery was ‘humane’ because ‘there is nothing but slavery [to] eradicate the character of improvidence’ that would otherwise bring extermination.

The vision of extermination offered by evangelicals was inevitably providential—- never a plan or action executed by the righteous but a natural self-operating outcome of God’s law and an individual’s own failings. The development of force of character produced material benefits; ‘inferiority of character’ issued in punishment. Dr. Matthew Estes, and admirer of Dew, described how ‘ultimate extinction’ of those who did not make themselves ‘fit for freedom’ was a result of the progressive and utilitarian nature of Providence: ‘Ultimate extinction… why should we lament such an event? …The extinction of a tribe, or even a whole people, is not more to be lamented than the extinction of one generation to make room for another. God cares nothing for the pride of man: he executes his purposes regardless of the whims and caprices of men… [and] does that which promotes the highest good of universal humanity.’ Much of this language in southern proslavery applied to free blacks and Africans; slavery was not considered an instrument of extinction. Estes, for example, qualified his prediction about racial extermination by noting that ‘the same race in the United States has made some advance in civilization’: ‘Protestant Christians constitute the only portion of the globe in a progressive state… The destiny of all the inferior grades of mankind with the exception probably of the negroes is extinction—- and extinction, too, much earlier than most people imagine.’…”

[John Patrick Daly. When Slavery Was Called Freedom: Evangelicalism, Slavery and the Causes of the Civil War.]

Michael Hill and the LOS now deny being racist– oh yeah? Here’s a racist creationist speech from Michael Hill cited at the racist creationist “Kinist” blog Spirit, Water, Blood. “Kinism” is their BC (Biblically Correct) term for racism– they say “racism” is a pejorative, so they call themselves “Kinists” instead (you know, like the way ID proponents say “creationism” is a pejorative.) Kinists are followers of the fascist, racist, pro-eugenics, Holocaust-denying creationist Rousas Rushdoony.

This is a peculiar but constant post-modern right wing response.

They dislike the word that describes their behavior (possibly just because they know, without understanding why, that others regard the trait as “bad”), but rather than change the behavior, they simply deny the label and express their true views in code.

In a way it’s just another example of reality denial.

Matt Young said:

The Southern Poverty Law Center classifies the League of the South as a hate group. According to Wikipedia, Mr. Peroutka has praised them, but to his credit

unambiguously stated that, “there is one race and that’s the human race”. More recently on his radio show, also published on his website theamericanview.com, dated September 9, 2013, he unequivocally states, “all elevation or denigration of individuals or groups based on skin color is immoral and shameful.”

Still, it will be disturbing if creationists like Mr. Ham inch toward the racist right fringe.

At least a few authoritarian fundamentalists are genuinely non-racist, even anti-racist, and others are blazingly racist (that’s one of the things they’d kill each other over if they ever gained true power), but they ALL willingly form part of a movement that panders to the racist right fringe.

Whether Peroutka gives speeches to known white supremecists because he sincerely agrees with them, or whether he’s merely pandering and manipulating them so that they’ll continue to support the overall right wing agenda, is largely irrelevant. He’s lying to somebody, either way. This is equally of far more mainstream and “respectable” figures on the right.

unambiguously stated that, “there is one race and that’s the human race”. More recently on his radio show, also published on his website theamericanview.com, dated September 9, 2013, he unequivocally states, “all elevation or denigration of individuals or groups based on skin color is immoral and shameful.”

Even this is probably racist code. Do you see why? It’s the inclusion of the term “elevation”. We’ve had a problem with “denigration of individuals or groups based on skin color” in the United States. There’s never been any “elevation”. Poor white people have never been “elevated” merely for being white, they aren’t being “elevated” today, and at least one Republican has been caught making derogatory comments about “white trash”. Any “elevation” has been purely relative.

So what’s with this “elevation” thing? It’s probably a dog whistle to the white supremecists, a barely coded nod to the idea that “minorities” are “favored”. I doubt very, very much that he’s saying it’s wrong for whites to consider themselves elevated. After all, if he were saying that, he could just say it openly.

Weasels themselves aren’t “bad” animals. They occupy an important environmental niche. They are sneaky, though - because to survive, they need to sneak up on their prey, and they often attack domestic animals that are protected by humans and dogs. They have a hidden agenda. They don’t want the farmer to know that they have designs on the chicken until it’s too late.

And weaselly words and behavior in humans also tends to reflect hidden agenda.

.… at one time he (or his Doppelgänger) apparently published real papers in real journals.

Andrew Snelling apparently leads (led?) a double life: one as a Flood advocate, the other as a consulting geologist for industry. And he wrote both Old Age and Young earth papers.

Peroutka was also endorsed by the League of the South…

The League of the South is basically the KKK with slightly better outfits, levis and baseball caps worn backwards.

The so called Constitution Party are xian Dominionist theocrats. They get very few votes.

Henry J said:

Does “ad homonym” apply when the argument in question has already been thoroughly refuted by lots of times, by lots of different people, maybe even in several different ways?

No, that’s ad nauseum.

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