Flagellum evo -- further discussion

For you flagellum wonks in the audience, an interesting and fairly detailed discussion of some of the science issues and, for lack of a better word, etiquette issues, took place over here at T. Taxus in “JCVI Evolutionary Genomics Journal Club on Liu-Ochman.”

(The discussion is also good for Esperanto wonks.)

P.S. added in edit:

FWIW (for what it’s worth), here is my list of online mentions/discussions of the L&O Flagellum Paper Controversy. (Rough draft and there may be some errors or misinterpretations. You have been warned.) It’s a pretty mixed bag for sure – some fairly creduluous citation of L&O which bugs me, some criticism of the PT blog criticisms, some ID piggybacking although most of them don’t even really get what the issues are (Dembski only caught on after I started noting that other IDists weren’t on the right track), etc. And in the grand scheme of things, this is not a huge amount of material – 45 items (if it was much bigger I wouldn’t attempt a listing anyway). We don’t have a “what if the PT blog criticism had been different” control group so any analysis will be dubious, but my suspicion is that whatever its flaws the PT criticism got a lot of people to look at the paper more carefully and may have stopped a lot of foot-shooting.

#DateTitleblogQuote or description of opinion statedUpdate
12007/04/16 0:00Stepwise formation of the bacterial flagellar system (online)PNAS online before printPaper online
22007/04/16 18:43Irreducible Complexity, IndeedJohn Dennehy, Evilutionary BiologistL&O disprove ID flagellum argument!
32007/04/16 19:11Stepwise formation of the bacterial flagellar systeminterrogatingnatureL&O disprove ID flagellum argument!updated with link to PT
42007/04/16 19:49Genome sequences reduce the complexity of bacterial flagella.Ryan Gregory, GenomicronSome enthusiasm for both of L&O & P&M)link to PT critique
52007/04/16 19:58Stepwise formation of the bacterial flagellar system [merged]IIDB Evo forumInitial enthusiasm (several different threads), later criticism
62007/04/16 22:49Flagellum evolution paper exhibits canine qualitiesNick Matzke, PTNick critique #1
72007/04/17 0:00The primary difference between science and IDClever Beyond MeasureCriticism of L&O praised
82007/04/17 0:00A Complex Tail, Simply ToldScienceNOWL&O disprove ID flagellum argument! Letter submitted to Science
92007/04/17 12:04When Scientists Go All BloggyCarl ZimmerCommenting on the controversy
102007/04/17 13:28Science at workUncommon GroundPraise L&O, note criticism
112007/04/18 0:00Skepticast #91Skepticast (podcast)Mention of ScienceNOW piece
122007/04/18 5:46In the News: A Complex Tail, Simply ToldTalk.Originslink, praise, links to critiques
132007/04/18 12:09You asked for simplicity and here you goKrish On PoliticsL&O disprove ID flagellum argument!link to PT in comments
142007/04/18 14:27ForumScandahoovian discussion board
152007/04/19 0:00Irreducible complexity - Eat your heart out!No More WallsL&O disprove ID flagellum argument!link to PT in comments
162007/04/19 8:37Sequence similarities in the bacterial flagellum: what do they mean?ARN blogMore IDists complaining about the very concept of sequence homology
172007/04/19 13:38DARWINISM GONE WILD: Neither sequence similarity nor common descent address a claim of Intelligent DesignMichael Behe/DIIDist doesn't get it: Even if there are sequence similarities it doesn't matter (i.e., Behe doesn't get the problems)
182007/04/19 13:49Inferring phylogenies + duplication and divergencesci.bio.evolutionDiscussion of further possible science
192007/04/19 15:53Behe's Black BoxEvil Under the Sun"Mit anderen Worten [in other words]: neeh neneneh neh."updated with link to PT
202007/04/19 22:58Uh-oh...poor science alert!PharyngulaProblems with L&O
212007/04/20 0:00Wie war das mit Leichtgläubigkeit ... ?German creationistsApparently chuckling over L&O
222007/04/20 0:00If Parody becomes the reality...German creationistsApparently chuckling over L&O
232007/04/20 2:28Update on PNAS flagellum paperNick Matzke, PTNick critique #2
242007/04/20 8:57All flagellar genes derive from a single gene"How could people publish such a ridiculous result, and in PNAS of all places?" [Dembski doesn't actually know enough to distinguish ridiculous from non-ridiculous -- Behe couldn't -- but he picked up on my statement.]
252007/04/20 10:00Scientific Controversiesevolgen, RPMProblems with L&O
262007/04/20 17:27Biologia Evolutiva O flagelo do "desenho inteligente"Citation of ScienceNOW piece
272007/04/21 10:49BOMBA! BOMBA! Falsificaram a complexidade irredutível do flagelo bacteriano!!!Nomenklatura CientificaMore IDists complaining about the very concept of sequence homology
282007/04/22 17:48ForumSkepChick.com forumAnti-ID citation, notes problems
292007/04/24 0:00Stepwise formation of the bacterial flagellar system (print)PNAS 104(17)Paper printed
302007/04/24 0:12Flagellum evolution kerfluffle continuedNick Matzke, PTNick critique #3
312007/04/24 10:22ForumVeganRepresentVegan weirdness
322007/04/25 13:20The great flagellum debateNsaundersDebate it but be professional
332007/04/25 15:31Stepwise flagella formation¡Viva La Evolución!L&O disprove ID flagellum argument! "NO fairies or little elves involved (in case you like it fantastic)"link to PT in comments
342007/04/26 5:38ForumEvolutionFairyTale.com"Behe's famous flagellum has been dissected aat the molecular level and an evolutionary pathway been built up showing the ancestory, see this link."
352007/04/26 13:07Peer review.Ryan Gregory, GenomicronAnnoyance at flagellum "spectacle "
362007/04/28 21:00Dishonest MoronsOJB42's BlogL&O disprove ID flagellum argument! "Just to completely destroy ID arguments, it has recently been found that 24 of the genes in the bacterial flagellum came from one gene,...Yes, that's right, the structure the ID supporters love to quote as their icon of ID, has become an example of evolution at work. OK ID, its time to give up. You can all go home now and stop deluding yourselves - evolution is a fact."link to PT in comments
372007/05/02 0:00Ayala (2007) Darwin's Gift: To Science and ReligionPrinted bookpp. 212-213, endnote 19 of chapter 8: Recounts L&O paper (in press at time of print, then...) "...The sequence similarity among all the flagellar genes in the 41 bacterial species has allowed Liu and Ochman to reconstruct the successive steps of addition and modification by which modern bacterial flagella have arisen." However the L&O paper is not cited in the main text.
382007/05/02 0:00Die Flagellumgeschichte geht noch etwas weiter.*Evil Under the Sun*Noting further debate over L&O
392007/05/04 21:50ForumOutdoorsBest forumuncritical citation
402007/05/09 17:00ForumRichardDawkins.net forumAnti-ID citation, notes problems
412007/05/10 2:56Re: Intelligent Design is NOT Science??? Apologetic.com forumAnti-ID citation, notes problems
422007/05/12 4:31JCVI Evolutionary Genomics Journal Club on Liu-OchmanT. taxusDiscussion of the discussionExtensive debate in comments
432007/05/14 0:00Microbiology: Building from the Inside OutRichardDawkins.net (not Dawkins himself)L&O disprove ID flagellum argument! link to PT in comments
442007/05/18 3:32Flagellum evo --- further discussionNick Matzke, PTlink to commentary
452007/05/18 8:20Peer review or peanut gallery?Ryan Gregory, GenomicronAnnoyance at blog critiicisms of L&O